Work is a dangerous place for me
Oct. 18th, 2009 09:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
pecuniumI spent today at work, being taught; by the vendors, how to sell.
The coffee machines were nice, and I now know how to run the self-contained machines which do everything. I can even do some visually dramatic things (like an actual cappuccino, with equal layers of milk, foam and slightly milked espresso).
But it was the knives which I was really interested in (I like the coffee machines, but I’m not interested in buying one of the do it all models, which pretty much means my attention was on the details needed to answer customer questions). The Kai Rep (makers of Shun, Ken Onion Knives, and the exclusive to Sur la Table line of Bob Kramer Knives) was interesting.
I like Shun. I also liked that he (and the woman who came from Zwilling; which is the same as Henckels, it’s a branding decision), really likes knives. Kai sells only knives (while Zwilling has acquired some cookware). I got some answers to things I’d wondered about (is the patterning on the Shun knives merely an aesthetic element, or does it reflect an actual use of layers in the manufacture.
The answer it, they are using layers. They forge a lot of of very thin sheets, using a roller-set up, to get some differential hardness, and appeal to the people who think “The Katana is just better.” It’s not that they are bad knives (I bought one last week), it’s just that they sell better for being made that way.
More relevant, he wanted people to be satisfied with the knives they buy. He was asked, “what makes a good knife?”, and he gave the answer I would have, “the knife that feels right in the customer’s hand.” He followed that by saying he was glad to be a rep for Williams-Sonoma and Sur la Table, because in neither chain is there a bad knife.
After he was done (it was about an hour), the Zwilling rep showed up. She had more things to show, but started with the knives. She’s been asked to do a demo (since she had cookware, and we had to eat; lunch was on Sur la Table, and it was paid training, a good day).
So she showed off the cutlery, which included a knife I’d seen in the case, but not handled. At $450 (for the 8” chef, and the 7” santoku-ish) it seemed a bit overpriced. So she told us how it was made (really fancy steel [Cronidur 30]; light, strong, and corrosion/wear resistant. It’s an alloy used in high-load bearings in the shuttle. They went from about 4 launches per bearing, to about 40), and how it was designed (an Italian architect. Seems reasonable since the Ken Onion knives were designed by an engineer, looking at film of a really big right-handed chef, and a really small left-handed one). It’s got really nice (and limited) wood, Makassar Ebony, harvested from branches, not trunk), smooth bolsters, a snick and a very smooth edge.
The same guy designed the “Profection” line, which has similar design elements, at a much lower price (and doesn’t have the fancy steel, or the rare wood).
They also have a Japanese line (which one of the Iron Chef’s has endorsed). Like the Shun guy she was just fine with selling any of the knives (we carry Wüstof, Kai, and Zwilling lines) we have in the shop.
Then she asked for volunteers. I like knives. I like to cook. I was in the front row.
I was told to slice an onion. It was going into the lunch salad, and I was doing it under the big mirror (we were taking class in the demonstration kitchen).
I took the 1731 (the expensive knife) because I wanted to see how it felt.
Oh My God.
It was not overpriced. Expensive, yes, but not ridiculous. It cuts smoothly, it balances well. It’s not a classic santoku; the belly is a bit deep. It’s the answer to a problem I’ve had for years; I’ve been unable to find a chef’s knife which feels right. This does.
I tried some of the other knives (one of the quirks of the law is no knife which is going to be sold can have been in contact with food. The explanation [which I can’t verify] is someone got sick from one which had been used, and not properly cleaned. Regardless it means the only way to try a knife is for it to be in the kitchen stock. Needless to say the 300-450 dollar knives aren’t). The Miyabi were nice, but I have knives like that.
I don’t have one like this one. And it’s pretty. To ice the cake, the only place to get one, over the counter, is Sur la Table.
The cookware, also very good. She had cutaways (the Shun guy had a cutaway too. Shun doesn’t have a full-tang, what it has is a tension bar running from the bolster to the butt cap. Just as strong, and allows for some of the balance issues (the blades on the Classic line are a little offset, to keep them in line with the handedness of the handles, which are asymmetric). She did demos.
The Belgian-made line (Demeyere) won me over when I saw it has no rivets. Nothing to get in the way of the utensils, nothing to trap food/make cleaning harder. Both the clad aluminum and the copper-bottom were well made, had good weight, looked good and, so far as I could see, had no design flaws.
The enamelware looks to be at least as good as Le Creuset.
Which brings me to the advertising aspect of the post: if you are thinking of buying a Zwilling/Henckels knife, or are in the market for cookware, and live in the Bay Area, swing by my shop to look at them. Drop me a line, and let me know, because I’d like you to do it while I’m at work. If you do buy something I get credit toward buying a Zwilling product, and I’d really like to not have to pay full-price for that knife.
The coffee machines were nice, and I now know how to run the self-contained machines which do everything. I can even do some visually dramatic things (like an actual cappuccino, with equal layers of milk, foam and slightly milked espresso).
But it was the knives which I was really interested in (I like the coffee machines, but I’m not interested in buying one of the do it all models, which pretty much means my attention was on the details needed to answer customer questions). The Kai Rep (makers of Shun, Ken Onion Knives, and the exclusive to Sur la Table line of Bob Kramer Knives) was interesting.
I like Shun. I also liked that he (and the woman who came from Zwilling; which is the same as Henckels, it’s a branding decision), really likes knives. Kai sells only knives (while Zwilling has acquired some cookware). I got some answers to things I’d wondered about (is the patterning on the Shun knives merely an aesthetic element, or does it reflect an actual use of layers in the manufacture.
The answer it, they are using layers. They forge a lot of of very thin sheets, using a roller-set up, to get some differential hardness, and appeal to the people who think “The Katana is just better.” It’s not that they are bad knives (I bought one last week), it’s just that they sell better for being made that way.
More relevant, he wanted people to be satisfied with the knives they buy. He was asked, “what makes a good knife?”, and he gave the answer I would have, “the knife that feels right in the customer’s hand.” He followed that by saying he was glad to be a rep for Williams-Sonoma and Sur la Table, because in neither chain is there a bad knife.
After he was done (it was about an hour), the Zwilling rep showed up. She had more things to show, but started with the knives. She’s been asked to do a demo (since she had cookware, and we had to eat; lunch was on Sur la Table, and it was paid training, a good day).
So she showed off the cutlery, which included a knife I’d seen in the case, but not handled. At $450 (for the 8” chef, and the 7” santoku-ish) it seemed a bit overpriced. So she told us how it was made (really fancy steel [Cronidur 30]; light, strong, and corrosion/wear resistant. It’s an alloy used in high-load bearings in the shuttle. They went from about 4 launches per bearing, to about 40), and how it was designed (an Italian architect. Seems reasonable since the Ken Onion knives were designed by an engineer, looking at film of a really big right-handed chef, and a really small left-handed one). It’s got really nice (and limited) wood, Makassar Ebony, harvested from branches, not trunk), smooth bolsters, a snick and a very smooth edge.
The same guy designed the “Profection” line, which has similar design elements, at a much lower price (and doesn’t have the fancy steel, or the rare wood).
They also have a Japanese line (which one of the Iron Chef’s has endorsed). Like the Shun guy she was just fine with selling any of the knives (we carry Wüstof, Kai, and Zwilling lines) we have in the shop.
Then she asked for volunteers. I like knives. I like to cook. I was in the front row.
I was told to slice an onion. It was going into the lunch salad, and I was doing it under the big mirror (we were taking class in the demonstration kitchen).
I took the 1731 (the expensive knife) because I wanted to see how it felt.
Oh My God.
It was not overpriced. Expensive, yes, but not ridiculous. It cuts smoothly, it balances well. It’s not a classic santoku; the belly is a bit deep. It’s the answer to a problem I’ve had for years; I’ve been unable to find a chef’s knife which feels right. This does.
I tried some of the other knives (one of the quirks of the law is no knife which is going to be sold can have been in contact with food. The explanation [which I can’t verify] is someone got sick from one which had been used, and not properly cleaned. Regardless it means the only way to try a knife is for it to be in the kitchen stock. Needless to say the 300-450 dollar knives aren’t). The Miyabi were nice, but I have knives like that.
I don’t have one like this one. And it’s pretty. To ice the cake, the only place to get one, over the counter, is Sur la Table.
The cookware, also very good. She had cutaways (the Shun guy had a cutaway too. Shun doesn’t have a full-tang, what it has is a tension bar running from the bolster to the butt cap. Just as strong, and allows for some of the balance issues (the blades on the Classic line are a little offset, to keep them in line with the handedness of the handles, which are asymmetric). She did demos.
The Belgian-made line (Demeyere) won me over when I saw it has no rivets. Nothing to get in the way of the utensils, nothing to trap food/make cleaning harder. Both the clad aluminum and the copper-bottom were well made, had good weight, looked good and, so far as I could see, had no design flaws.
The enamelware looks to be at least as good as Le Creuset.
Which brings me to the advertising aspect of the post: if you are thinking of buying a Zwilling/Henckels knife, or are in the market for cookware, and live in the Bay Area, swing by my shop to look at them. Drop me a line, and let me know, because I’d like you to do it while I’m at work. If you do buy something I get credit toward buying a Zwilling product, and I’d really like to not have to pay full-price for that knife.
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no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 06:12 pm (UTC)Mostly because I've never seen one which was finer than about 600 grit, which is fine for shaping, but not so good for fine edges and polishing.
The other problem is that it's really easy to overheat something as small as a knife, and just destroy the edge temper. I could learn to do it, but since I have a nice selection of hand stones, I don't take advantage of the wheel I have access too (that and dressing it is a pain).
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 06:28 pm (UTC)Julia, cooking tools are merely a side-line for me
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 06:45 pm (UTC)Waterstones work differently, so the shapes of the filings don't seem to impinge.
I've not done any testing, and I am prone to really frequent wiping, and then finishng with grit and leather, so I don't know if the extra work/loss of ability to do smooth drags at low speed would counteract the advatnages of the lubricant.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 07:09 pm (UTC)In many ways, my family has resisted the industrial revolution down through the generations. (Except for electric welders and chain saws).
Julia, not so much a luddite as just plain cheap.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 07:15 pm (UTC)I also resist the grosser effects of the industrial revolution. I am a carbon steel (though it's getting harder to find), cast iron, and pottery sort of guy in the kitchen.
I have a coffee mill I use for spices, but mostly it's used to beat cinnamon down to chunks suitable to the mortar/pestle, and powdering dried onions and chilis.
My steels are all older than I am, probably all older than you are (and a couple may be older than the two of us put together). When I was machining I kept a stone, and a strop-patch on my bench to touch up my tools.
I know just how you feel.
Change of subject: cinnamon
Date: 2009-10-19 07:23 pm (UTC)Re: Change of subject: cinnamon
Date: 2009-10-19 08:30 pm (UTC)I buy higher end stick, and it's much tastier.