Work is a dangerous place for me
Oct. 18th, 2009 09:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
pecuniumI spent today at work, being taught; by the vendors, how to sell.
The coffee machines were nice, and I now know how to run the self-contained machines which do everything. I can even do some visually dramatic things (like an actual cappuccino, with equal layers of milk, foam and slightly milked espresso).
But it was the knives which I was really interested in (I like the coffee machines, but I’m not interested in buying one of the do it all models, which pretty much means my attention was on the details needed to answer customer questions). The Kai Rep (makers of Shun, Ken Onion Knives, and the exclusive to Sur la Table line of Bob Kramer Knives) was interesting.
I like Shun. I also liked that he (and the woman who came from Zwilling; which is the same as Henckels, it’s a branding decision), really likes knives. Kai sells only knives (while Zwilling has acquired some cookware). I got some answers to things I’d wondered about (is the patterning on the Shun knives merely an aesthetic element, or does it reflect an actual use of layers in the manufacture.
The answer it, they are using layers. They forge a lot of of very thin sheets, using a roller-set up, to get some differential hardness, and appeal to the people who think “The Katana is just better.” It’s not that they are bad knives (I bought one last week), it’s just that they sell better for being made that way.
More relevant, he wanted people to be satisfied with the knives they buy. He was asked, “what makes a good knife?”, and he gave the answer I would have, “the knife that feels right in the customer’s hand.” He followed that by saying he was glad to be a rep for Williams-Sonoma and Sur la Table, because in neither chain is there a bad knife.
After he was done (it was about an hour), the Zwilling rep showed up. She had more things to show, but started with the knives. She’s been asked to do a demo (since she had cookware, and we had to eat; lunch was on Sur la Table, and it was paid training, a good day).
So she showed off the cutlery, which included a knife I’d seen in the case, but not handled. At $450 (for the 8” chef, and the 7” santoku-ish) it seemed a bit overpriced. So she told us how it was made (really fancy steel [Cronidur 30]; light, strong, and corrosion/wear resistant. It’s an alloy used in high-load bearings in the shuttle. They went from about 4 launches per bearing, to about 40), and how it was designed (an Italian architect. Seems reasonable since the Ken Onion knives were designed by an engineer, looking at film of a really big right-handed chef, and a really small left-handed one). It’s got really nice (and limited) wood, Makassar Ebony, harvested from branches, not trunk), smooth bolsters, a snick and a very smooth edge.
The same guy designed the “Profection” line, which has similar design elements, at a much lower price (and doesn’t have the fancy steel, or the rare wood).
They also have a Japanese line (which one of the Iron Chef’s has endorsed). Like the Shun guy she was just fine with selling any of the knives (we carry Wüstof, Kai, and Zwilling lines) we have in the shop.
Then she asked for volunteers. I like knives. I like to cook. I was in the front row.
I was told to slice an onion. It was going into the lunch salad, and I was doing it under the big mirror (we were taking class in the demonstration kitchen).
I took the 1731 (the expensive knife) because I wanted to see how it felt.
Oh My God.
It was not overpriced. Expensive, yes, but not ridiculous. It cuts smoothly, it balances well. It’s not a classic santoku; the belly is a bit deep. It’s the answer to a problem I’ve had for years; I’ve been unable to find a chef’s knife which feels right. This does.
I tried some of the other knives (one of the quirks of the law is no knife which is going to be sold can have been in contact with food. The explanation [which I can’t verify] is someone got sick from one which had been used, and not properly cleaned. Regardless it means the only way to try a knife is for it to be in the kitchen stock. Needless to say the 300-450 dollar knives aren’t). The Miyabi were nice, but I have knives like that.
I don’t have one like this one. And it’s pretty. To ice the cake, the only place to get one, over the counter, is Sur la Table.
The cookware, also very good. She had cutaways (the Shun guy had a cutaway too. Shun doesn’t have a full-tang, what it has is a tension bar running from the bolster to the butt cap. Just as strong, and allows for some of the balance issues (the blades on the Classic line are a little offset, to keep them in line with the handedness of the handles, which are asymmetric). She did demos.
The Belgian-made line (Demeyere) won me over when I saw it has no rivets. Nothing to get in the way of the utensils, nothing to trap food/make cleaning harder. Both the clad aluminum and the copper-bottom were well made, had good weight, looked good and, so far as I could see, had no design flaws.
The enamelware looks to be at least as good as Le Creuset.
Which brings me to the advertising aspect of the post: if you are thinking of buying a Zwilling/Henckels knife, or are in the market for cookware, and live in the Bay Area, swing by my shop to look at them. Drop me a line, and let me know, because I’d like you to do it while I’m at work. If you do buy something I get credit toward buying a Zwilling product, and I’d really like to not have to pay full-price for that knife.
The coffee machines were nice, and I now know how to run the self-contained machines which do everything. I can even do some visually dramatic things (like an actual cappuccino, with equal layers of milk, foam and slightly milked espresso).
But it was the knives which I was really interested in (I like the coffee machines, but I’m not interested in buying one of the do it all models, which pretty much means my attention was on the details needed to answer customer questions). The Kai Rep (makers of Shun, Ken Onion Knives, and the exclusive to Sur la Table line of Bob Kramer Knives) was interesting.
I like Shun. I also liked that he (and the woman who came from Zwilling; which is the same as Henckels, it’s a branding decision), really likes knives. Kai sells only knives (while Zwilling has acquired some cookware). I got some answers to things I’d wondered about (is the patterning on the Shun knives merely an aesthetic element, or does it reflect an actual use of layers in the manufacture.
The answer it, they are using layers. They forge a lot of of very thin sheets, using a roller-set up, to get some differential hardness, and appeal to the people who think “The Katana is just better.” It’s not that they are bad knives (I bought one last week), it’s just that they sell better for being made that way.
More relevant, he wanted people to be satisfied with the knives they buy. He was asked, “what makes a good knife?”, and he gave the answer I would have, “the knife that feels right in the customer’s hand.” He followed that by saying he was glad to be a rep for Williams-Sonoma and Sur la Table, because in neither chain is there a bad knife.
After he was done (it was about an hour), the Zwilling rep showed up. She had more things to show, but started with the knives. She’s been asked to do a demo (since she had cookware, and we had to eat; lunch was on Sur la Table, and it was paid training, a good day).
So she showed off the cutlery, which included a knife I’d seen in the case, but not handled. At $450 (for the 8” chef, and the 7” santoku-ish) it seemed a bit overpriced. So she told us how it was made (really fancy steel [Cronidur 30]; light, strong, and corrosion/wear resistant. It’s an alloy used in high-load bearings in the shuttle. They went from about 4 launches per bearing, to about 40), and how it was designed (an Italian architect. Seems reasonable since the Ken Onion knives were designed by an engineer, looking at film of a really big right-handed chef, and a really small left-handed one). It’s got really nice (and limited) wood, Makassar Ebony, harvested from branches, not trunk), smooth bolsters, a snick and a very smooth edge.
The same guy designed the “Profection” line, which has similar design elements, at a much lower price (and doesn’t have the fancy steel, or the rare wood).
They also have a Japanese line (which one of the Iron Chef’s has endorsed). Like the Shun guy she was just fine with selling any of the knives (we carry Wüstof, Kai, and Zwilling lines) we have in the shop.
Then she asked for volunteers. I like knives. I like to cook. I was in the front row.
I was told to slice an onion. It was going into the lunch salad, and I was doing it under the big mirror (we were taking class in the demonstration kitchen).
I took the 1731 (the expensive knife) because I wanted to see how it felt.
Oh My God.
It was not overpriced. Expensive, yes, but not ridiculous. It cuts smoothly, it balances well. It’s not a classic santoku; the belly is a bit deep. It’s the answer to a problem I’ve had for years; I’ve been unable to find a chef’s knife which feels right. This does.
I tried some of the other knives (one of the quirks of the law is no knife which is going to be sold can have been in contact with food. The explanation [which I can’t verify] is someone got sick from one which had been used, and not properly cleaned. Regardless it means the only way to try a knife is for it to be in the kitchen stock. Needless to say the 300-450 dollar knives aren’t). The Miyabi were nice, but I have knives like that.
I don’t have one like this one. And it’s pretty. To ice the cake, the only place to get one, over the counter, is Sur la Table.
The cookware, also very good. She had cutaways (the Shun guy had a cutaway too. Shun doesn’t have a full-tang, what it has is a tension bar running from the bolster to the butt cap. Just as strong, and allows for some of the balance issues (the blades on the Classic line are a little offset, to keep them in line with the handedness of the handles, which are asymmetric). She did demos.
The Belgian-made line (Demeyere) won me over when I saw it has no rivets. Nothing to get in the way of the utensils, nothing to trap food/make cleaning harder. Both the clad aluminum and the copper-bottom were well made, had good weight, looked good and, so far as I could see, had no design flaws.
The enamelware looks to be at least as good as Le Creuset.
Which brings me to the advertising aspect of the post: if you are thinking of buying a Zwilling/Henckels knife, or are in the market for cookware, and live in the Bay Area, swing by my shop to look at them. Drop me a line, and let me know, because I’d like you to do it while I’m at work. If you do buy something I get credit toward buying a Zwilling product, and I’d really like to not have to pay full-price for that knife.
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no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 04:02 pm (UTC)I poke my head into the Sur la Table at the Ferry Building for drooling purposes once in a great while (and need to replace my garlic press Soon), but there's a hidden one on Maiden Lane.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-23 06:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 04:49 am (UTC)Some day I'm getting one really good carving knife- I can grind and hone up everything else, but that's the knife that's almost always has the whole edge worn off by bad use of the steel.
Julia, need to weed my knives down to the usable ones and toss the rest soon
I'm jealous now
Date: 2009-10-19 04:56 am (UTC)I happened upon a Santoku knife at the Ft. Leavenworth semi-annual Post garage sale* a couple of years ago, the young woman managing her home's garage sale said her hubby bought it for her and she was scared to use it. No idea about that whole thought, but she was selling it for $5 because she wanted it out of her life. I lurves it to death!
* Leavenworth has a collection of War Colleges, they change out in, I think, May and October so they hold a post-wide garage sale in April and September. We usually make it to the spring one, the fall one is in the midst of our Renaissance Festival and often the weekend Rohanna's dance troupe is at Fest.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 05:42 am (UTC)I've already half-way decided to come seek you out when I get around to buying them - much nicer to go through someone you know than to just order it online.
You sell those, right?
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 06:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 06:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 06:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 06:47 am (UTC)I loathe that there are so many things that can't be fixed or sharpened; it's stupid that scissors are pretty much disposable now.
Julia, working at Sur le Table is a tool-freak's dream
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 09:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 11:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 12:21 pm (UTC)TESTIMONIAL
Date: 2009-10-19 12:35 pm (UTC)I have to say, the Shun is amazing. It's a gorgeous piece of engineering and metallurgy, and it takes and holds an edge like a razor. I should probably get it sharpened now, because it's finally dulled down to about as sharp as I can get the Henckel on its best day.
0.0
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 01:13 pm (UTC)But knives? My kitchen is going to be a treasure-trove for some estate-sale hunter some day. I have 4 generations worth of all sorts of kitchenware, including some absolutely lovely Finnish knives. I've inherited so much stuff that I've equipped fosterlings with starter kitchens of their own, and never missed what I gave away. Which of course does not stop me from buying new stuff now and again, when I see something super-cool. :)
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 01:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 01:42 pm (UTC)Now if I could just learn how to sharpen the things properly. I have a wetstone and use it, but never seem to get a really good edge.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 01:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 03:05 pm (UTC)I'm a small left-handed cook. I need a knife that will work for me left-handed. My Caphalon santoku is OK, but the butt-end of the knife has cut me more than a few times. And I adore Le Crueset- I want a dutch oven so I can do the no-knead recipe.
I go to a WS/Pottery Barn outlet store in Memphis on a regular basis. I find all sorts of great goodies there. Their sauces and seasonings are wonderful. I loved their brining spices last year, and their Asian sauces are wonderful.
Re: TESTIMONIAL
Date: 2009-10-19 06:08 pm (UTC)A santoku ("japanese chef's knife")?, or a classic "chef's knife?"
One of the big differences between the two is the primary bevel (the actual angle of the blade, not the angle of the edge). Japanese style knives are thinner, all around, which makes it much easier to go through soft things (the flesh of animals, most vegetables). They are great slicers.
That same geometry makes them so-so at "push" cutting.
Combine the harder steels (the Shun Classic is about 60 Rockwell, to the European 56-58), and they are very weak as choppers. Use them on anything but a soft plastic (not acrylic), or a a wooden board and the edge will break, and it will need to be reground (what the knife trade calls, "retargetting).
Don't get me wrong, I love mine (and took advantage of my employee discount to get one I'd been lusting after for years with my first week's pay), but they are (like any other knife), possessed of good points and less good points, and one of them is the edges are less forgiving.
Your Henckel will be much more forgiving of a poorly made steel than the Shun (in fact, most steels will shorten the blade life; even the one Shun provides). The Shun steel will be fine, so long as you don't exceed the included angle of the knife; go too steep in the attack and you will start to kill the edge.
You can take that Henckel (because of the softer steel) and drag it at 90° to the steel and still repair it with the steel. If you to that to the Shun a knife geek like me, or the factory in Oregon, will have to fix it.
The Henckel can be made as sharp as the Shun, but it's not designed to take advantage of being that sharp.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 06:10 pm (UTC)If you are ever in my neck of the woods I can teach you to use a whetstone (I'll be teaching my boss sometime in the next couple of weeks).
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 06:12 pm (UTC)Mostly because I've never seen one which was finer than about 600 grit, which is fine for shaping, but not so good for fine edges and polishing.
The other problem is that it's really easy to overheat something as small as a knife, and just destroy the edge temper. I could learn to do it, but since I have a nice selection of hand stones, I don't take advantage of the wheel I have access too (that and dressing it is a pain).
Re: TESTIMONIAL
Date: 2009-10-19 06:13 pm (UTC)And yes, I know these things. Why would anyone use anything other than a wooden board?
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 06:14 pm (UTC)Other than that, most symetric knives ought to be fine.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-19 06:15 pm (UTC)Re: TESTIMONIAL
Date: 2009-10-19 06:21 pm (UTC)I am not fond of the santoku, because the belly is too flat (though Forschner/Victorinox, and Mac are supposed to make very good ones) which is why this one so surprised me.
If it was a bit more drop pointed I'd be happier, but as it is, it's almost perfect.
Why would people use other than wood? They think it's hard to care for, and believe plastics are more sanitary.