Um... guys?

[pecunium]

I seem to have failed in part of my post on my PTSDish problems.

I wasn't trying to say I thought I was weak, per se, for having been affected by those things. I was trying to address why one might decide not to seek help. There is a comment in Robertson Davies The Rebel Angels that one ought not attempt therapy when one is smarter than the therapist.

This is only half-true; but if one is smarter (or at least more clever) than the therapist, untoward (even if, at the time, desireable) results can happen.

I saw a Shrink when I first got to Madigan. They made me (I gave truthful answers to the, really vague, questions on my mental state... so they sent me for a consult). Anyone just back from theater; who was honest, should have gotten such a consult. A better system wouldn't have done consults, but rather some form of support group.

Suffice it to say that I, not stupid; occaisionally clever, and trained as I was, bufalloed him somthing silly. I went in with the intent of getting a specific diagnoses,and I did (Fundamentally stable, dealing well with the, understandable, concerns and uncertainties facing him).

Am I "weak,"? No more so than anyone else who sees the sorts of things I'm seeing. I was mocking (or trying to) the cultural perceptions which make it hard to think those hardships might cause one to need help. commodorified hit it on the head when she linked to Kipling's Hymn of Breaking Strain:

We only of Creation
(0h, luckier bridge and rail)
Abide the twin damnation-
To fail and know we fail.
Yet we - by which sole token
We know we once were Gods-
Take shame in being broken
However great the odds-
The burden of the Odds.

Thanks, btw, for all the support. It helps.

Comments

[athenais.livejournal.com]

I followed that just fine. But I wish you could get a decent diagnosis.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

Why did you aim for a diagnosis of "basically ok"?

[tenderberry.livejournal.com]

weak - a very annoying term especially when applied to mental states - personally I think basic training alone would qualify one for a psych consult -

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Because that's what I wanted to be?

Because I didn't see any way I could be all that broken.

Because being broken was a bad thing.

Just because.

[firedrake-mor.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, I spent five very productive years working with a particular therapist at the Sepulveda VA clinic who impressed me because he was a) larger than me, b) actually seemed more intelligent, c) could cope with my pagan faith, science fiction fandom and sometime polyamorous lifestyle, and d) was willing to work with me every week and cope with all the years of baggage.

Through him, I worked through my depression over long unemployment, my issues with my marriage and divorce, my various injuries and need for surgery, and all manner of other traumas. Ne's both a psychologist and neuro-psychologist, and has extensive experience in PTSD.

I can unreservedly recommend Dr. Steven Ganzell, and I'm not too proud to admit it. I doubt seriously that he'd characterize you as "weak".

[swingland.livejournal.com]

I did the same thing when I came back from theater because my EAS was in a month and I was already admitted to college. I didn't get the consult, but I didn't answer honestly either. My friend, who answered truthfully and was set to get out at the same time, got his EAS pushed back almost a full year and a half pending medical review. During none of that time was he really given much psychiatric therapy, just pushed on a rag-tag number of prescription meds and eventually shoved out the door with a recurring VA check (though now, I wish I got the VA check, but I digress).

I've ground my back molars (in my sleep) down pretty far. Luckily, that's fixed with a good nite-guard(R).

[daedala.livejournal.com]

It's ok to be smarter than the therapist, as long as you're not wiser than the therapist, and are aware of this.

This also applies. (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=171790)

[shunra.livejournal.com]

Because being broken would mean admitting to a vulnerability, and that isn't safe?

[wcg.livejournal.com]

Thanks for clearing that up. All the stuff I said in my comment the other night still stands.

[qp4.livejournal.com]

Because "broken" is an Armyism that's pretty close to being a synonym to "shitbag." Nobody wants to be broken, except those guys that seem to ride the broken thing into the lightest and most infrequent duties. Even people that are legitimately injured are lumped (and we all recognize the wrong for it, then do it anyway) into the "broken" or more often in combat arms- "broke dick" catagory, and then shunned as a shamming soldier not willing (even if he's not able) to even attempt to pull his own weight.

[qp4.livejournal.com]

My first trip I gave 'em the glib. I was National Guard off an 18 month deployment (and really did have some pretty serious PTSD), so I just wanted to get back to the hometown and start drinkin'. It didn't help that my girlfriend left me, though I'm not assigning blame.

This time I was a bit more honest, and now I'm sitting in a hotel in Atlanta where I saw some "specialist" and after wasting a great deal of my personal time, I'll probably be written off as "treated" or something. I also missed a lot of work.

I think just tellin' the SRC guys what they want to hear works better.

[shunra.livejournal.com]

That standard is not sustainable by humans, of course. Especially humans under hostile fire.

What an awful, awful thing to do to our finest children.

[shunra.livejournal.com]

"Works better" in the sense of "gets them out of your face faster", yeah.

Pretty much like clicking "ok" on a dialog box in order to make it go away.

Consequences in both cases could be... ...unpleasant?

These may be worth checking into...

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

Both independent, neither afflilated with the VA or the Forces, both free:

http://www.vets4vets.us/

http://www.thesoldiersproject.org/

These may be worth checking into...

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

Both independent, neither afflilated with the VA or the Forces, both free:

http://www.vets4vets.us/

http://www.thesoldiersproject.org/

I know how broken people can get over this shit.

[dragonet2.livejournal.com]

My beloved brother ended up being incarcerated for a while. It made him better in the long run, but our family had a huge upheaval which was not helped by my mom and dad's attitude of being in total denial of anything related to mental health.

His situation was not helped by his undergraduate degree in psychology. When his first wife went to the mental health people saying 'he's doing this and this and this." he'd deny it when he was interviewed. It took some really spectacular acting out to get the judicial system involved and his getting any mental health care at all (and it was from Kansas state, not VA).

There should be no shame in being broken by what you are exposed to, especially if you are not in control of it at all. Being in the military makes this idea really really hard. Because to do your job, you just have deal as best you can. Otherwise you'll get cast to the curb with no recourse even if the army was the thing that broke you.

I respect your service. I really enjoy your LJ photos and commentary. I think we're pretty much on the same wavelength on a lot of things.

There is no way you are weak. You are mitigating things for yourself that will maybe make your life easier. Just give yourself a break and remember the AA prayer of being able to just let go of the things you have no personal control over.

Hugs.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Because being broken is shameful. Because being broken implies a moral failing.

Because, esp. in the Army, this sort of broken is seen as a moral failing. Soldiers do combat, it's what we are paid for, it's what we train for. To be unable to cope with the aftermath is to be a less than perfect; perhaps less than capable, soldier.

So we put off accepting our failings.

[shunra.livejournal.com]

Can you see the logical fallacy in that line of thought?

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Yes.

Which changes nothing. We see the fallacies in it while we do it (I think it falls into a strange slive of denial). If we are lucky we have pals/mates/buddies/friends we can share things with, which helps.

I think that's why trhe Guard and Reserve have a higher incidence, the generic support networks aren't there.

[shunra.livejournal.com]

I was not asking idly, of course.

The thing most similar in my life to the denial-of-brokenness that you describe is how I (used to) handle receiving telephone calls while asleep.

My self-image is very tied up in being - for lack of a better phrase - "with it". However, getting from "asleep" to "functional" is not instantaneous with me. I used to answer the phone (if it rang while I was asleep) and have had reports about saying the most embarrassing or bizarre things, because of that gap in modes.

It took years to be able to accept that I do not have to be available by phone all the time. It took years to put down the demands of my self image, in the interest of functionality. But it was doable, because I trained my attention onto the fallacy for long enough to be able to see it. (We're talking years, here, of making the same mistake and reminding myself that it's ok to err (which is HIGHLY counterintuitive) and repeated and repeat and repeat).

On a much larger scale, you have the fallacy of "I must not be broken". Training your mind on the inevitability of brokenness in that circumstance, and the critical importance of forgiveness (self- and external) might possibly help. (I think that's what CBT does, in essence.)

Or in other words: the map and the reality of "strong", "weak", "broken", and "safe" need to be reconciled. (Some good ideas about how this can be done have already been mentioned, but the first step is to look at the map/reality gap.)

[songblaze.livejournal.com]

If it is any comfort, a lot of abuse survivors end up doing the same thing. Trying to avoid admitting that what happened to them was enough to break them. That what happened had such a profound effect. That the person who abused them is in a way still having an impact on their lives.

There is definitely a perception that those who are abused are weak, stupid, dirty, or shamed...which is internalized to the extent that it is often the strongest among those who are suffering from the aftermath of abuse or current abuse.

[songblaze.livejournal.com]

Smarter than the therapist has been a problem for me, in the past. I've gotten rid of half of my shrinks because they just...couldn't keep up. I tend to, at this point, have a point-blank discussion with a new therapist at my first appointment explaining the 'requirements' I have in a therapist: that they can keep up, that they accept the fact that I'm pagan and if they are of another faith keep it out of my therapy, that I enjoy some kink and that has nothing to do with my abuse, and that there is a certain type of relationship I need with a therapist - the ability to tease me out without really pushing me and a willingness to drop something when I say we're dropping it.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

If I could manage it, therapy might not be a bad line of work; what you describe is no small part of the mindset a good interrogator has to use, "in the booth."

Well, apart from the dropping it, per se. We tend to nibble at the edges of things offered, and then withdrawn.