A Question

[pecunium]

I have seen, as I travel to and fro in the net I keep seeing something I don't understand.

Women telling men they really don't want to look behind the curtain at TMI posts about menstruation.

Now, I understand warning people about TMI posts. Descriptions of the details of surgeries, accidents and all manner of gruesome goings on are not for everyone.

What I don't understand is why that single topic gets that warning.

Are men, as a class, that easily squicked?

Comments

[glinda-w.livejournal.com]

Seem to be (rough guesstimate, at least 60% of those I've talked with, get squicked about any "female plumbing issues" - including, ferghodssakes, menopause.

I just don't get it.

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

Not all of them -- but the ones who are tend to get obnoxious about it when they look despite the warnings. I've seen that happen enough times to understand why women say, "Just don't even look."

[antonia-tiger.livejournal.com]

On the one hand, why worry about idiots who ignore warnings; on the other, they can make so much trouble that you really want to deter them.

And I think there's a streak of the fear of sexual activity in their reaction. Look at how such topics have been tagged as pornography by net-filter services.

I think it's a consequence of a wider pattern of broken thinking about sexual matters. Not all men, maybe not even many men, but too many to be ignored. A mixed blessing of the Internet is that it lets groups of statistical freaks get together and get attention.

[fledgist.livejournal.com]

I think it's largely a result of lack of education about what menstruation is, plus a fear of sex and/or of the vagina dentata.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Are men, as a class, that easily squicked?

As a woman, I've always gotten that impression. I always secretly wonder if, unlike surgeries and accidents which could happen to anybody, it's really more fear of the blood-like unknown.

[joecrow.livejournal.com]

A lot of dudes are fucking pansies about the dreaded red tide. I dunno why, really. Just more lube, far as I'm concerned.

...or was that TMI?

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

This isn't just periods. It's things like cramps, shed uterine lining, hysterectomy, cysts, ectopic pregnancies, etc.

TK

[joecrow.livejournal.com]

True. A lot of dudes seem utterly terrified about anything related to womanbits that occurs deeper than the fur. I dunno if it's just standard male culture vs. scary woman culture stuff, or if it's some kind of psychological external genitalia vs. internal genitalia phobia, or if it's just that most dudes learned all they know about chicks from their dads and other dudes. Me, I was raised by my mom, so I dunno if I just didn't pick up a lot of dude culture or what. Maybe that's why I don't dig sports either.

[hammercock.livejournal.com]

Considering that some religions and many cultures disallow a man from even touching a menstruating woman? I'd say yes. They can certainly overcome it if they want to, though.

[discoflamingo.livejournal.com]

As somebody who is virtually impossible to squick (who is mostly friends with same), I really don't know.

[athenais.livejournal.com]

An awful lot of men are grossed out by how women's bodies really work. Conversationally, it's a killer.

[firepower.livejournal.com]

It's only pro forma. If you don't have massive horror about women, there are certain questions you have to start asking, certain ways of acting you have to start questioning.

[feonixrift.livejournal.com]

I think there is a lot of squick factor for some people. They'd rather just not think about it. Then again, I think part of that is the idea that women undergo some pretty ridiculously painful and/or gross things sufficiently often to not really be bothered by the idea of discussing it. I'm not sure which of the reasons why that could be squicky apply, but... Well, one of the most recent discussions I've heard had to do with which hurt more, monthly blood or breaking a bone.

[fjm.livejournal.com]

Agreed with all of the above but would add: men tend to be disproportionately squicked by their own plumbing, hence the near impossibility of getting men to go for rectal and tecticle examinations, and while most surgeons are men, men are also far more likely to faint at the sight of blood/insides on an operating table than are women (although battle fuelled adrenaline has long been a cure-all). This may be *why* young men often harrass and dare each other into violence.

[wolodymyr.livejournal.com]

Often.

It's surprising. And it can be surprising who reacts like this. And the tone can vary.

One can say - I mean, I run my life in general on the principal of avoiding people who'll behave like that, so as to spend less time taking them into account, but in the event it's just surprising who feels entitled NEVER to hear about feminine hygiene.

[niamh-sage.livejournal.com]

Some guys don't seem to like it, sure, but I also think that women play into the idea by assuming that guys will be squicked out by it and behaving accordingly (e.g. warning men specifically to not look behind the cut). Not all men are bothered by it. I think if women have the starting point that men will be squicked, then some men will behave squicked (even if they aren't) just to maintain some communal, non-verbally-decided comfort level.

Sometimes I think the assumption that men will be squicked is more a reflection of how women feel about it themselves, than how men feel about it. I know that when I put something TMI behind a cut (not very often, admittedly) I'm aware of feeling vaguely embarrassed about the TMI stuff, along with the wish to give readers a choice about whether they want to read it or not.

[thette.livejournal.com]

I prefer "Caution: gynecological content" as a warning, and letting people decide for themselves if they want to read.

[desert-vixen.livejournal.com]

Speaking for myself, women tend to be more comfortable discussing ob/gyn issues.

A lot of military men, at least the ones I've worked with, seem to be really squicked by it.

DV (who used it recently)

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it was your use which really pointed it out to me.

I went behind the cut, and it was just stuff. There wasn't anything to add, so I didn't, but it was one of those things were I realised how often I saw it, and how it never was off-putting.

TK

[bifemmefatale.livejournal.com]

Fortunately my hub has no such issues at all, but he was raised with a single mom and two sisters, which may have something to do with it.

Even more annoying to me is how clueless some guys are about the indignities and discomforts of gynecology. They claim they know exactly what a Pap smear is like because they have prostate exams. Um, no, not the same.

[fledgist.livejournal.com]

Not the same, true, since a prostate exam doesn't involve the excision of tissue. But it feels, ahem, a bit odd to be lying on your side while a finger is stuck in your anus and your prostate is stroked (she's trying to find out if it is swollen or soft or both) giving you the feeling you need to pass water SOON.

[bifemmefatale.livejournal.com]

It's a little-known fact that gynecologists also often insert a gloved finger into the anus while doing exams in order to feel certain aspects of the vagina.

I don't deny that men's experiences with doctors can sometimes be uncomfortable and humiliating, but I've never heard a guy talk about being slut-shamed, lied to, overruled about his own body, leered at or disbelieved about his own medical history as much as all the women who talk about their hellish experiences with gynecology in these 2 posts.
http://naamah-darling.livejournal.com/284513.html
http://naamah-darling.livejournal.com/285263.html

[fledgist.livejournal.com]

I've heard that gynecologists do probe the anus.

The problem for women, is indeed, as you say that they are frequently lied to, disparaged and so on And that is hellish.. Yet men can find themselves humiliated, insulted and so on by physicians too. Not necessarily sexually -- it being assumed that you have the IQ of a rock when your skin is darker than pink is not sexual -- but humilation just the same.

I can remember one physical where the physician, after asking me what I did and being told decided that I couldn't be a college professor and must be a student and put that in his notes. This was after he got very upset when he came in saying 'Hello, Fragano, I'm Dr X' (I forget his name) and I said, 'In that case, I'm Dr Ledgister'. He seemed to think that I was presumptuous or dishonest. I thought he was patronising and rude. It didn't make for a pleasant experience. Certainly not as harrowing as the ones descibed in those posts, nowhere near, but very uncomfortable.

[don-fitch.livejournal.com]

That Attitude used to be almost universal among physicians -- what I think of as the "A Doctor is a god" syndrome. Maybe it can be useful -- the placebo effect, as it were -- but some of us aren't manipulated by it. By nature, I'm a first-name person (actually, nickname, for me) but I'm also (strongly) a reciprocal person -- if someone wants to be called "Doctor X", okay, but in that case (as you indicate) I'm "Mister Fitch", and if The Doctor, or The President, addresses me as "Don", I'm going to reciprocate with "Joe" or "Helen" or "George" or whatever. (Of course, I use "Doctor", or "Nurse" when the status is apparent and I don't know the person's name, but that's a Special Case.)

[fledgist.livejournal.com]

I agree with you.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I've got the habit of knowing what's going on, and askng relevant questions. I've never had this fail to get the doctor treating me as a reasonable person.

In some cases (esp. as relates to non-rheumatologists dealing with my auto-immune disorder) this leads to them asking me questions.

The only physician I've ever had treat me as an object was the internist who diagnosed my Reiters. The second, and third time I saw him he was more human (though both times he treated me, sort of, as property).

And yeah, I expect a reciprical level of respect. In military hospitals it's actually pretty good. Doctors tend to not wear rank as much as they could, and to have what, appears, to be a real repsect for the patient (as a rule).

TK

[don-fitch.livejournal.com]

Yup, the four military (Captain) doctors I served under/with in the 160th Med. Co. (one during U.S. training, one in Japan, two during the eight months in Korea) all seemed to have a strong element of "I consider myself a Physician first, and a Soldier second... if at all" (as Capt. LeCaille, I think, actually put it), and two of them were RA, rather than Draftees.

Degrees of Attitude seem to vary greatly by individual, locale (Kaiser HMO apparently puts its MDs & Nurses through a stiff PR indoctrination course), MedSchool & Internship, and era -- the past twenty years have seen a big change in the expected Style in which the doctor-patient relationship is handled. Mostly for the better, I think, though I've had a couple of doctors who didn't ask enough questions, or the right ones, and many patients have even less medical/health awareness than I do. (And then there was the one doctor who didn't realize that a pain in the arm-pit might suggest angina even if it didn't "radiate down the arm" [which seems to be the key phrase from the textbooks].) Mind you, I'm okay with doctors who look at me and see only the symptoms/disease, as long as they do a good repair job. One of the reasons I like Kaiser HMO is that anything serious gets several doctors in on it, and they pay more attention to the welfare of the patient than to the Face of any of themselves.

[redrose3125.livejournal.com]

Women are taught that menstruation is dirty, and secret, and embarassing. I imagine men get the same messages, with the added bonus they don't do it, so they don't have to think about it. I've never dated a guy who was comfortable talking about it, or hearing me and other women talk about it.

[redrose3125.livejournal.com]

And there's also the whole "guys are embarassed to buy feminine hygiene products for their S.O.s" thing, which I don't understand. You are involved enough with a woman that you buy her something that personal! You are in a long term relationship (probably)! Why are you listening to the other men/the culture snickering about it! Tell them to F-off!

[doryllis.livejournal.com]

I think there is both a squick factor as well as a "the less I know the less I have to think about it" factor. It is easier to ignore/downplay feminine issues if you simply refuse to acknowledge or discuss them. The elephant really only effects the half of the room their not sitting in.

I had a drill Sgt who insisted that feminine hygiene products, while required for our wall locker display, had to be displayed in such a way that he couldn't see them, ever. Of course, I also met a sisterless man who seriously thought that hygiene pads went sticky side up. At least he had thought about it.

I will agree it isn't men *as a class* but the class of people who are seriously squicked beyond bearing is mostly men.

[feonixrift.livejournal.com]

Of course, I also met a sisterless man who seriously thought that hygiene pads went sticky side up. At least he had thought about it.

At least he didn't think tampons were for wearing all the time. There's a lot of unclear on the concept going around, sadly.

[don-fitch.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have A Theory (sexist though it may be) that women are hard-wired to be able to cope with squicky stuff (and tedious, boring, and irritating stuff as well) -- because they have _had_ to cope with it in order to ensure their survival and that of their children, whereas men can just ... Oh, Shiny!....

[fledgist.livejournal.com]

I'm not. I've never understood why other men are.

[inflectionpoint.livejournal.com]

You might be surprised at how many men are squicked by the subject or totally weirded out by it.

I think that in some cases, there are men who really can't deal with the fact that women's bodies are -women's- bodies and that there's a lot more to having girlparts than being... umm... fuckable? I've met folks who just don't want to hear about it because it takes away from their comfort in not knowing what many women deal with every single month. There's an odd combination of guilt and anger mixed up with each other that turns into something of a taboo around it. It's frustrating to be around this, because it's so taboo that it's invisible, and you can't talk about what you're not talking about, eh?

I used to coddle men about this, until a former partner of mine made such a big deal of it and carried on so much about it that I lost my patience for good. He'd carry on and on and on about how "noone" wanted to have relations when they were bleeding, which is simply and plainly not true. (Hint... try asking people and listening to them - it's a great way to learn facts. Some women do want to, some women don't want to. Some might not know till the day is there. People vary in what they wish.)

After enough of this nonsense, I lost it. I mean, everyone came into the world through a woman's blood, and none of us would be hear without women's blood. So people who get weird and nasty about it are people I don't coddle anymore. People who get weird about this tend to have other behaviors that I do not wish to be around, so if I lose contact with them for lack of coddling them, I end up coming out ahead anyway.

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

As somebody said above, it's not that ALL or even MOST of them are, but when they are they tend to complain about it in a way that they seem to be persuaded is manly and yet endearing. It is neither.

Sadly, it generally does at least a tiny bit of what it's intended to do, which is make the woman in question feel nasty, shameful and gross.

Also, a small percentage of those who are NOT squicked about it use it as an excuse to talk about how much they don't mind having sex during their partner's period. Which under those circs is basically another form of sexualising women's bodies: "well, hey, I've got cramps so bad I can't breathe but at least now I know it wouldn't put you, Mr Almost Total Stranger, off fucking me. How ... nice."

[collie13.livejournal.com]

I think it's more a case that women consider menstruation just something that's part of their life (however annoying), where men are taught by the culture that it's repulsive, vile, and unsanitary. Consequently when a guy stumbles over it unexpectedly and is grossed out, he takes his revulsion out on the woman -- how could she be so disgusting?!

In my experience it only takes one or two instances of being loudly and publicly treated like you've rolled in dog shit to make you very leery of letting any man anywhere near you when you feel vulnerable.

[tenderberry.livejournal.com]

or perhaps, as one of those psychological trivia bits I seem to remember form time to time, when confronted w/ something about which someone else is complaining. men are frustrated if they can't fix it. They are not content to just listen and be sympathetic. Throw that in w/ all the myriad cultural taboos surrounding menstruation - and I am just so glad I am way past menopause -

[don-fitch.livejournal.com]

Thanks -- you have, I think, explained most of my difficulty with stuff like this (including all kinds of Medical (and other) Problems). I feel sympathetic, listen reasonably well (or did, back when I could hear most of what people said), and just hope that my discomfort isn't apparent. But yeah, not to be able to fix things, or ameliorate people's suffering, makes me feel Seriously Uncomfortable. I'm not sure that this, as a general personality characteristic, is significantly gender-related, however, and suspect that this Thread is just a Special Instance.