I don't know why I do this to myself

[pecunium]

Fred Clark, The Slacktivist, posted about the recent article relating to the book by the interrogator who is haunted by what he did.

It's part of why I've not been posting much lately. I made the mistake of getting involved in the discussion

There's an asshat who favors torture, and is engaging in the various debating tricks of those who are advocating the immoral.

Me, it pushes my buttons. I hate that it does, but it does. It screws me up. It makes me grumpy, and irritable. I find myself wanting to drink more, and lash out at people, and not motivated to do much of anything.

It's just one of those things I have to deal with. None of us comes back as we were; harder in some ways, tougher in others, and surprisingly brittle at the oddest of moments.

C'est la guerre

Comments

[doryllis.livejournal.com]

Why we do this s***? Arguing with people that we know will never view ALL other humans as equal...Because someone has to.

I know that my arguments on these issues with others does not always bear fruit with them, but sometimes I see light dawn in the eyes of others around them. Sometimes having the same discussion with the same moron 50 times gives them a clue that really there is another valid viewpoint. There are even a couple of unchangable souls who I have seen/heard modify their rhetoric after talking to me about it. They never admit I am right or that I had a point, but their viewpoint changes.

Sometimes I cling to the little changes when the hate, inconsideration, repetition and the futility get me down. Good luck. I know it feels like fruitlessly banging your head against a barbed wire fence, but it may actually help others see sense, if not the individual in question.

Of course, sometimes the best thing about banging your head against something is that brief feeling of relief when you stop.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I don't have a sense of relief. I have the feeling I lost. The shithead got under my skin. I not only lost my cool, but right now I am a walking ball of frustrated anger, looking for something, or someone, to lash out at.

I am fit company for neither man nor beast and I'm unhappy because of it

What I really want to do is take him out and pound some sense into him. If that doesn't work, at least I'll have passed some of the pain onto him, from whence it came to me.

But I can't do that, so I get to stew in my own bile.

Oh well.

[kathryn-ironic.livejournal.com]

That's one annoying thing about trolls, that they can provoke some of our best arguments and longest comments and yet they just keep on with the ever-changing goalposts. And just as annoying (for me) is that I don't recognize the troll until well into the argument.

I've run into people like that troll- not on this topic, but on topics that can have similar intensity (for example, one I saw recently was on lifesaving (or life-losing) healthcare decisions). If someone doesn't come in to call a troll a troll- and in 99% of forums and comment threads no one does this- then it's easy to lose a few hours and 20 points of blood pressure to a troll.

Now I use the 'blood pressure spiking' measure all by itself to judge a troll a troll.

They're good at doing what they do- whether it's by choice (to be a troll) or block-headed nature. Non-troll humans will always be a bit vulnerable to trolls, because it's an outcome of assuming the other readers are fellow students and teachers of life. Trolls see nothing but puppets and mirrors.

At the end of the day you're bothered by his block-headedness. He likely doesn't even know he is one. You win.

[davidkevin.livejournal.com]

The Articulate Sociopath Who Knows How to Push Buttons and Zeros in on People Who Give a Damn.

The bane of existence for decent people. LASFS was full of 'em, WWIV and FIDOnet, then Usenet, and now the blogosphere and LiveJournal.

I know precisely how you feel, it's all too personally familiar, the anger and frustration, and the knowledge that nothing you can do will ever cause them to feel the same pain they cause in you, or just get them to stop being sociopaths and learn to behave decently. You were a cool kid when I knew you personally, and from what I can tell from your LJ, you've grown into a fine man. You've never deserved to be targeted.

I'm sorry, Terry. Try to remember that this guy's a vampire and although I know it sounds lame to say it, and that it's easier said than done, try not to let him get any more emotional energy out of you -- or to use a different metaphor, try to get your needle to jump into a different emotional track from the one into which he's pushed you. Listen to some fine music or read some Le Guin or Heinlein or whoever takes you out of your head and into the author's better place.

Good luck, and my regards to your mom, Naomi, and Marty.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

What I really want to do is take him out and pound some sense into him. If that doesn't work, at least I'll have passed some of the pain onto him, from whence it came to me.

I see two sides to that:

(1) He thinks violence works, so you're just honoring his preferences.

(2) That would make you like him.

That's often the quandary with means and ends, isn't it?

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I'm not like him. I'm better, and worse.

I don't stoop to torture, but I'll kill.

He won't kill, he won't even stoop to torture, but he'll wink at it, give it tacit approval, while denying that he does, with his caveats that, "we must use harsh questioning methods, that don't rise to torture," but allowing things which are torture.

So at least, for all my warts, I'm not being a hypocrite.

[sunfell.livejournal.com]

I know where you're coming from. Inhumane people do not see other people as humans. Often, these people have never been on the receiving end of any kind of horrific experience of any sort. They haven't been 'broken' in that way. (Or healed in the manner of wounded warriors.) Until they actually get terrorized themselves, they believe themselves invulnerable, immune, untouchable. When they break, there will be tiny, sharp, nasty little shards- if they survive the experience. Often, they do not.

I've had to deal with 'shitheads' who cannot fathom that I am a human being. Because I am female, I was- to their minds- some sort of talking subhuman who was there only to service them. And when I refused, I became a target, a challenge, an affront to their manhood.

I still keep a bell on my door, so if it moves, I can hear it, even though my encounter with Shitheads was nearly 20 years ago. The nightmares are fewer and farther between, but they still haunt me in my weaker moments.

They don't get it, my friend. They never will, unless they actually get immobilized and terrorized themselves. All you can do is seed kindness and light in your wake, and pray that you will always rule your darker self. That is what I try to do.

It works, most of the time.

[pdx42.livejournal.com]

The means are the end. You personally have the background and the right to be offended by those who advocate torture.

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights really do define who we are. Not only ideals, but the highest law of the land, they preserve what we fight for, and steer us clear of becoming the tyranny which we despise.

I am a veteran who has been through much. You are AD who has been through even more. Good on you for keeping your head on your shoulders, and your conscience grounded in your Self. Together we will fix this.

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

I don't know why I do this to myself

Because you're a good man. And because you're not perfect, and you have some scars, and so sometimes you take the bait.

*offers shoulder to lean on for a bit, and hot tea*

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

Also, on reading that I don't think you lost it as much as you think you did. That's sharp, but cogent and coherent.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I lost it. I was doing all right until I told him to go to hell.

From a purely process point of view, so long as my bubbling rage stays on my side of the keyboard (or only gets to places where I get to set the agenda) it doesn't matter how incoherent I am.

But when I lost it, when I show him how upset I am, then he (whomever he is) wins, because I've let the debate move to my emotional reaction, not the issues.

Part of what bothers me is giving him that much satisfaction; he doesn't deserve to know I'm that upset.

[kathryn-ironic.livejournal.com]

I think that from most other people's perspective your "go to hell" reads "you're a troll." Non-trolls understand.

I've often found it isn't until right when I'm ready to yell out to the screen: "What are you, an idiot / robot / troll / moron !?!" that it hits me: yes, indeed, the troll is a troll.

Be nice to notice it earlier, but it goes with the territory of assuming that fellow readers are interested conversationalists.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

It's really late, so I'm not as coherent as I could be.

I'm sorry these jerks push your buttons so much. I'm sorry this is hard on you, and I can certainly understand why that's the case.

For my own selfish reasons I'm glad you do take this on, not for the asshats but for the other people who might be swayed by the asshats without people speaking in opposition. And, as you say, you do this for a living, you have credibility that someone like me just does not have. When you speak -- especially as you so often do so eloquently, such as here -- your words carry weight.

I cannot tell you how much I respect you and the work you do. Not only the work you do professionally, but the task you've undertaken in helping educate others about the issue of torture.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

It's for the "other people" that I do it. I long ago lost the illusion that my silver tongue and razor wit would persuade the idiots of the world of the rightness of my position.

So I try to show those for whom the simple-minded solutions might be attractive that they aren't.

I was talking with Maia about this last night (and ought to have brought it up sooner, since she's been paying the price of my ill-humor). Were I a Quaker, this is how I testify. Testimony isn't easy, and it isn't always fun.

[don-fitch.livejournal.com]

As someone else has said, "In combat, there are no uninjured soldiers". Recovery requires time, and effort. In your case, in the sphere of torture, that effort apparently includes identifying people who have, as a major goal, the winning of arguments, and developing the self-control to follow-through appropriately -- which probably means either ignoring them entirely, or presenting a brief, unemotional, rebuttal and then ignoring them. If you lose your temper (and, on this topic, you're likely to do that) they'll happily consider that they've won. Face it, Terry, some people are what might be termed "morally defective" -- and nothing you say is likely to cure them. Please save your enegy for the uninformed, rather than wasting it on the malformed.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

As I said to patgreene I'm not really trying to persuade him.

I just have to remind myself of that.

[don-fitch.livejournal.com]

Yes, though it would be nice if being reminded didn't involve hitting yourself on the head with a 2x4. You probably also need to keep in mind that there's no obligation or mandate that you refute pro-torture people in order to prevent others from being convinced by them. I'd say that between 10 and 15 % (estimates may vary in either direction) of the general American populace actually considers that torture is acceptable behavior, while maybe 75% don't. I think this is the kind of thing that's determined, in most people, by the age of ten or thereabouts, and it's too basic for discussion and argument to affect, except for a very small number of people. Many may need to be reminded, perhaps, but rarely is more than that required. (Mind you, it _is_ important to remind people that using some other term doesn't make something less than torture, and that commonly-acceptable innocuous interrogation techniques become torture if continued long enough.)

[fidelioscabinet.livejournal.com]

When someone is a monster, or is ready to be a monster, I think they want to make as many other monsters as possible, so they can say it's normal to be a monster. That way they don't have to feel isolated or worry that it might be wrong to be a monster.

[martyn44.livejournal.com]

Nil nisi illegetimo carborundum. Easy to say, but you're the one on the front line here. Be as hard on him as you like but try not to be hard on yourself.