The things some people do

[pecunium]

Imagine this.

Someone busts into your house and threatens you with a deadly weapon.

I know what I'd do, and the least of it is going to lead to an arrest.

So, this guy in Wisconsin hears, what he thinks is, a woman sceaming for help from his upstairs neighbor's place.

He grabs a sword, runs up the stairs, kicks in the door, and finds his neighbor watching some porn.

Attempted rescue

On the one level this is commendable, because, so he says, he didn't have a phone. Exigent circumstances allow cops to go busting in, why not John Q. Public?

On another level, it's daft.

I used to be a security guard. To get a license I had to take a test of 25 questions, and miss nary a one (this didn't mean much, it was open book, there was no fee, and one could take it as often as needed... it was scary watching the people taking it, the number who needed to take it 3, 4 a dozen times to pass).

Most of what the test was about was the limits of being a citizen. In Calif. anyone can make an arrest. The requirements are straightforward; a misdemeanor has to be committed in one's presence, a felony requires, "good reason to believe," the person was the perpetrator. Oddly enough these are the requirements (roughly) for cops. They are allowed to make an arrest on a criminal complaint for a misdemeanor, but in that case the person swearing out the complaint is attesting they saw the misdemeanor.

The difference is that cops have some protections if they screw up, John Q. Public doesn't.

The guy says, he froze. He meant to hide the sword (what?) but he froze.

"Van Iveren said Tuesday that he heard a woman "screaming for help," grabbed the sword, bounded up the stairs, kicked in the apartment door and confronted the man who lived there.

"I intended to hold it behind my back and knock. But I froze and instead, what happened happened," he told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

Contesting his neighbor's account, Van Iveren said he didn't look anywhere in the apartment except the front room, and that he never threatened the neighbor with the sword.

"I had the sword extended. But that was all," he said."

When did he freeze? Before, or after he kicked in the door. He "only extended," the sword. Good. After all, it isn't as if pointing a sword at somone is "doing" anything." We'll just forget that when fencing someone who has, "merely," extended weapon requires that the offending weapon be dealt with... why? Because if you don't deal with it, the person holding it will teach you what it feels like to be a shish-kebab.

There are those who see this as blown all out of proportion, who say the fool ought to be forgiven, if not given plaudits
"I would be happy if someone tried to save me," Kandy Kimball said. "I think he's a good guy. I feel bad for him."

"It's kind of nice that we live in a town where people don't just turn their back and look the other way," David Peterson said. "I don't think he should be charged with three crimes. I would like to see the courts work with him and give the guy a little break."

So this guy pulls a breaking and entering, and an assault with a deadly weapon; at leat that's what it would look like here. One of those is a felony.

But Wisconsin sees it as three misdemeanors.

Me, I see it as a guy who's lucky it wasn't a cry for help, because he seems clueless as to what that sword was good for, and the odds are he'd have gotten hurt.

Comments

[rm.livejournal.com]

I'm just floored by the incredibly stupidity and arrogance of this guy. You don't accidentally freeze with a sword extended. And an extended sword _is_ threatening someone. What the hell?

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Not arrogance, and not stupidity, per se.

It's ignorance. He's seen lots of movies, and swords are romantic. He was going to play the hero and be swashbuckling while he does it.

You know, I know, anyone who's ever used a sword knows, that holding a naked sword is a threat, extending it is a palpable threat.

It could, however, be worse. Startle me awake in the middle of the night, I'll grab a sword (rapier, or katana) because it's got options, but when I grab it, I know that I'm grabbing an active weapon, and I intend, at the very least, to threaten the living shit out of someone.

He didn't, thank heaven, grab a gun... because if the complaintant's account is right... that poking it about, could have been lethal, not just scary.

TK

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

And part of me is saying serves the idiot watching the DVD right, for having it so damn loud in the first place.

Years of living in close quarters will do that to ya. I in fact would applaud the guy if he lopped the watcher's head off for having it on so loud!

And you know what too? So sick of a world where people turn away. Maybe the guy wasn't bright or thought it through, but at least he did something. Don't throw roses or a parade but don't crucify him, you know?

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I'm not... but he didn't think it through. He waded in, guns blazing (for all practical purposes) threatening someone with great (even fatal) bodily harm.

I have swords, and they are in arms reach, much of the time. If he'd come into my house like that, he'd probably have ended up in the hospital.

He didn't, per his account, knock on the door and ask what was going on, he kicked it in, and threatened the guy inside.

That's more than just not turning away.

TK

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Not everyone is trained and cool, calm, and collected in a crisis. Some people are utterly useless. He meant to do a good thing. I don't think he is a dangerous criminal that needed to be arrested.

[sethg]

Criminal, no. Dangerous...possibly.

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

Yeah, possibly dangerous, you're right.

The guy needs a nice, prepaid cell phone. Not a sword.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, he needs a life...

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=569088

He waited ten hours before breaking down that door. In that time, he could have walked to a neighbor's house and used the phone. He's lucky they aren't calling it 'premeditated'.

Personally, I own a rifle, if someone breaks down my door, brandishing a sword, they're gonna get shot. Maybe only in the knee (I'm level-headed enough to shoot to disable, not to kill unless it's absolutely necessary) but shot nonetheless. You'd think he'd come up with a better strategy in tens hours time.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

On a purely tactical level... the rilfe is always loaded, always ready to hand?

Because if it ain't, you'll get skewered going for it.

TK

[aopansaa.livejournal.com]

Crap, that was me, didn't realize it was anonymous >

[shekkara.livejournal.com]

Most people aren't capable of thinking things through when they get into that kind of flight-or-fight situation. And if his imagination was going into overdrive with images of swashbuckling rescue...

Well, it wasn't the smartest way to go about an intended rescue. People who train for combat -- martial artists, soldiers, cops (one hopes) -- spend years learning how to think things through in combat situations so that they can react instinctively and hopefully in an appropriate way, and even supposedly trained people act in the worst ways possible. Look at all the stories about cops shooting people who weren't actually threats. (We have a recent local case where a fleeing *unarmed* suspected drug dealer was shot in the back and killed.) I don't know why it should be suprising that some untrained dude waving the family heirloom sword around doesn't know how to handle a weapon or how to respond appropriate to that situation.

The guy wasn't so bright, but no one got hurt and he meant well. And if "intention" matters for other crimes, why can't good intentions help here?

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Looking at the DA's response, his intentions got him some slack.

He has three misdemeanor charges, I'll wager he gets a fine, some Community Service and probation, not the 33 months in jail he could get (if the sentences were consectutive.

He might get 90 days, consecutive, for 9 months (suspended).

Worst case, he gets about 90 days, concurrent on all three.

TK

[shekkara.livejournal.com]

That's good to hear. I'd scratch any jail time but throw in restitution for property damage plus maybe (I don't have enough info say definitely yes or no) a psyche evaluation.

[quercus.livejournal.com]

Someone busts into your house and threatens you with a deadly weapon.
I know what I'd do, and the least of it is going to lead to an arrest.

How does that predicted response vary depending on whether you were, or were not, watching violent porn with screaming in it?

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

For me, not in the least.

Secondly (in this case), we don't know that the porn was violent, or merely loud.

TK

[quercus.livejournal.com]

In an ideal world, both persons would act rationally and in a manner benefitting society, to the best of their knowledge.

So the first guy is justified (debatable, but IMH-moral-compass) in taking action to prevent what he believes to be a crime in progress.

The porn-watcher though ought to be measured in his responses (i.e. not shooting the first swordsman through the door). He's watching loud porn with screaming in it -- it's not _unreasonable_ that this should have provoked a reaction from bystanders. If you make noises like this, you ought to be prepared for the neighbours' reactions.


Naturally I wouldn't do any of this in practice, as I'd be wasting time deciding just which sword to pick up 8-) Besides which, from what I've seen of living in US apartments I'd go in through the wall, not a door.

[lalouve.livejournal.com]

What annoys me most is the grabbing a sword with no clue how to use it. You never, ever, handle a weapon in a potentially live situation without knowing exactly what to do with it (I go for a knife if I go for a weapon, for that precise reason - with a handgun I can't hit a barn standing inside it). That's how people get killed accidentally.
I would go hammer on the neighbour's door if I heard a woman screaming, but kicking in doors are for policemen and movies.

[shekkara.livejournal.com]

People with sense know that you don't grab weapons with knowing how to handle them. People with weapons training know that. People with neither... well, that seems to be this guy.

[shekkara.livejournal.com]

Oops. That should be "...don't grab weaspons withOUT knowing how to handle them..."

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

He's fortunate to be alive to be charged. Had the porn-watcher been someone who believed in--and was ready for--use of guns in defense of the home, the result might well have been very different. As might the result if the idiot owned a gun that he was as (apparently) untrained in using as he was the sword.

As my favorite comedian, Ron White, says, "You can't fix stupid."

No one's said this yet?

[wurmwyd.livejournal.com]

Hi there!

...and how many guys sitting alone in their apartment watching porn would just happen to have their hand wrapped around the handle of their sword? :D

Personally, I like to think that I'd do exactly the right and proper legal action in this case. I'm not sure what that is, but I think it's somewhere between kicking in the door and politely knocking armed only with a few harsh words for the would-be attacker. I like to think that I'd come to some poor lady's rescue, be a big hero, and have Stan Lee base a new comic book character off of me. (not to mention the passionate embraces of my lovely rescuee)

What would happen? I'd be sitting in my downstairs apartment, eyeing my sword carefully thinking: "It's probably not what I think it is. Maybe she's into BDSM and they're just playing? What if he has a gun? Maybe they're actors rehearsing a scene. They're probably just drunk and spouting lines from "Texas Chainsaw Massacre". (doesn't everybody re-create horror movie scenes when drunk?)". Someone could be getting murdered, and I'd be downstairs trying to convince myself that it's really nothing. :(

Re: No one's said this yet?

[shekkara.livejournal.com]

Errr... he wasn't expecting to find a guy watching porn (and much less with a sword at hand). He was expecting to find a guy raping a woman, and probably with a knife or gun at hand.

Re: No one's said this yet?

[kibbles.livejournal.com]

I wonder if my neighbors thought the same thing when I was being beaten, begging for my life. :( I remember screaming OUTSIDE THEIR DOOR as I was being beaten on the way to our apartment. They were home -- I heard them talking in between blows and when he was trying to cover my mouth to stop the screaming.

But then they were as useless as the cops, and the MPs. The MPs were the best, they ARRESTED me. Geeze.

Re: No one's said this yet?

[wurmwyd.livejournal.com]

Hi there!

That's exactly it. Do you sit around in your apartment hoping that it's nothing, or do you actually DO something and then find out that it's a guy watching porn, or some teenagers having fun?

I once watched a couple of neighbors have a screaming match in their backyard, and the lady in question was shouting for us to call the cops. Her husband was screaming back at her, but was obviously too drunk to stand, let alone raise a fist. He was actually trying to leave, but she was stopping him.

I got up to call the cops, and my Mother, Fiancee, Brother, and best friend unanimously told me to sit the hell back down. since then, I always tend to think that I'm the one over-reacting in any given situation. :(

Isn't the use of lethal force justified...

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

...in an attempt to defend others from bodily harm?

Now I'm not endorsing the downstairs neighbour's exact course of action, mind you, but I can't exactly fault his motive.

[raaven.livejournal.com]

What an idiot. He's lucky to be alive to be charged with anything...and it damn well OUGHT to be a felony charge.

Instead, people are all "Oh, he's such a hero", and he'll probably end up thinking he did the right thing and was persecuted by the legal system. Ugh.

[mayakda.livejournal.com]

I hear a woman or child screaming, I'd like to think I'd do something.
(In my case call 911)