Class

[pecunium]

The US has class issues. Most of us pretend they don't exist. We promulgate the myth that everyone is "middle class," which of course admits, in a back-handed sort of way that there are classes to either end of the middle.

I live in a class based world, because armies have class. Officers, NCOs and enlisted. All three of them are unique. There is always overlap, because one can't fuction if one doesn't interact with all of them (well, the enlisted can, sort of, but not for long).

The Army pretends it values the middle, the NCOs ("the backbone of the Army is the Non-commissioned man, as Kipling said, which was more subversive than it appears, because every single member of the "other ranks" mentioned so casually in reports of the dead, were non-commissioned).

But try to see anyone who isn't an officer getting listened to by the rest of the world. There were no crusty old sergeants major waxing pontiffic about the goings on at the front if one tuned into CBS, or CNN, or Fox. Nope, it was all retired generals. No one was there to tell people about the grunt's-eye view.

Because we don't, as a culture value the craftsman. We value the boss.

This comes up because someone at The News Blog tried to insult me by informing me that he was a retired commander of the USN, and that my blithering ignorance and stupidity were why I'd not managed to rise above Staff Sergeant in the National Guard.

Class. He thought he had it, and I didn't, and that he (a puffed up civilian) could strike me with trembling awe because he has a commission in the Navy, and I a lowly peon in a second string slice of the service. To quote Bugs, "He don't know me very well, do he?"

I am an NCO by choice. There are lots of people (esp. when I wasn't yet an NCO) who press me to take a commission. Ain't gonna happen.

I might take a Warrant, but they are changing the Warrant Corps so much I may not do that either. It isn't that I'd make a bad officer, in some ways I have more of an officer personality. But I like what I do. I'm good at it, and if I take a commission I can't do it.

Which means both I, and the Army, lose.

And I'm in the Guard by choice. I could have gone active at any time. It didn't strike me that the petty bullshit of day to day army life was worth it. Looking at the regular Army types I went to Iraq with, I didn't see them doing a whole lot better than we did (and I don't think any of my fellows were part of beating prisoners to death, which some of them were, so on that count I can be proud, in part because I helped train about half of the guys who deployed out of my unit)

So this Navy yobbo tries to make me feel insignificant, by braying about his commission. Whoo-hoo.

Deeds, not words. I know what I've done. I know how to puff it up, so it looks good in thumbnail bio-sketches. I know what parts are puffery, and I know what parts are the real deal. The meat and potatoes which make my service worth more than a bucket of warm spit.

But class hides that. No one will think that I have had the equivalent of 10 percent of the total interrogators in the Army go through schools at which I was teaching (thats one of those things which sounds more impressive than it is, but is pretty impressive all the same. I don't see it that way, to me is was just a day's work). No one will ponder that of all the NCOs in the states who applied for an exchange with British NCOs, I was one of about a dozen who were picked. No one will think that I helped mentor a 2LT, straight out of West Point and that I did it in a war zone.

They see a guy who didn't have what it takes to be a "leader" and had to settle for making sure the troops were trained and the plan was executed.

We do the same thing when we see transit workers as, "unskilled" labor. Or treat the teachers as less than the administrators. Those who do the work, with grubby hands and weary back, are bemeaned by it.

So the Navy guy; he can kiss my ass, not because he was rude (that happens) but because he didn't learn the lessons that living in a class society ought to have taught him... that the backbone of a system is its "non-commissioned" members.

Comments

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

When I was growing up (that makes me sound so old), my father (an ex-Marine) drilled repeatedly into my head that any honest labor was honorable, and that people who did actual work were to be respected and listened to. We seem to have lost that lesson, as a society.

We also do it whenever we ask a nurse if they wanted to be a doctor. Or when people become lawyers because they believe that they have to do something "professional" and they are not sure what they want to do, and law school is an easy way out.

[huladavid.livejournal.com]

Reminds me of a nurse I worked with years back. He'd often get asked why he hadn't gone on to be a doctor, and would answer, "I wanted to do God's work, not be god."

[elf]

The Peter Principle is active in business today.

I'm starting to get noticed at work. I've been there just over three months, and the managers have figured out that I've got a *lot* more skills than they hired me for. They're caught between "we want to find you a better job, one that would benefit the company (and you) because you'd be doing challenging work that you actually like" and "we want to keep you in our department, because you're incredibly useful to have around."

And I know it's coming... I'll eventually have to *fight* to stay at the no-higher-than-project-manager status. I don't belong in admin. Being smart, competent and easy to work with doesn't mean I'd make a good department head. Nor even a good dep't head assistant.

And part of being in that niche (someone who should be doing work, and reporting to admin about problems & changes) is noticing how they try very hard to grab anyone competent *away* from real work... as if it's somehow "beneath" an intelligent person to make copies for five hours, or count inventory, or file papers.

So instead, our copies are made by indifferent people who keep ripping the staples out & losing the invoice numbers in the corners, inventory counts are as much as 20% off because people don't check their counts, and papers are filed haphazardly in the wrong category. And one of the required skills of management becomes "fix mistakes done by semi-compentent, untrained people who are doing the actual work."

Of course the admin class, and the commissioned officers, look down on the workers, and down on the people they perceive as "managing the idiots." They've rigged the system so that only the most devoted or most desparate stay in the niche that actually gets work done; almost everyone with any skills pushes or gets dragged out of it, which leaves an endless pool of changing, untrained workers, plus the dregs who've been discarded from everywhere else.

[knightchik.livejournal.com]

Hell yeah.

[pindar.livejournal.com]

One of the comments you hear most on the LECC (Late Entry Commissioning Course) at Sandhurst is that the WO1s/2s being commissioned as Capts don't appreciate until they have to do it the diplomatic intricacies of being an officer. NCO's are do-ers. They are there to make things happen and put policy into practice. Good NCOs advise on how that policy (read orders) should be compiled in order for them to be successful. They are the technocrats, skilled and experienced in the detail of doing that we, as officers, aren't.

Our "trade" is different. The leap from Capt to Maj in the British army is a substantial one. You get an incling in the intellectual leap as a senior Capt in your first SO3 post or as a 2 i/c when you get to take the reins for short periods. You understand what it is to run an active CP in OpCon. You have to juggle G1 to G4 in real time, and handle the data flow into something meaningful, keeping your eye constantly on Commd Intent, ROE, and TAOR. You simply can't do this if you are worrynig about all the little details like how far you can stretch a 1 ech MSR, that's what the MTSNCO in the G4 cell is there for, to tell you if you are about to push it too far.

In a world of increasing education the class distinction is there less and less (OK, for the Cav and Household Divs it matters, eleswhere no-one gives a toss), but what becomes evident is the increasing complexity of command that a young officer at even Pl/Tp level has to contend with. Even his JNCOs have to be aware of the diplomatic influence a decision at patrol level might have. I think more is demanded of officers than at any time previously and hence the standards of those selected for direct entry commissions in BritFor is higher than it has ever been. This is equally so for the quality of most of the soldiers. To be frank, with the exception of the technical corps such as REME, RSigs, and Int Corps there is still a significant gap in the intellectual dexterity of many SNCOs and the officers who command them. Many WOs who would assume at one stage that they would hit the beige list of LE officers are finding it harder to make the mark and thus the transition. It is no longer the expectation that at the end of 22 years an LE commssion will be waiting, and after 5 years promotion to Maj as a Battn QM and perhaps an OBE. Those selected for LE are now having to prove their worth, not their longevidy.

I have a lot of respect for SNCOs, they make the place tick. I am also impressed by the standard of the officers we have here, and I can appreciate that the difference is marked not by class prejudice but by the sheer quality of the man. That's not to take anything away from the achievements of the SNCO, but the 2 are not necessarily interchangeable.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I have a lot of respect for SNCOs, they make the place tick. I am also impressed by the standard of the officers we have here, and I can appreciate that the difference is marked not by class prejudice but by the sheer quality of the man. That's not to take anything away from the achievements of the SNCO, but the 2 are not necessarily interchangeable.

I agree. It's part of why, even in the most classless of societies, armies maintain the distinction.

TK

Whither the RTR?

[jeffreyab.livejournal.com]

Is there a class distinction in the RTR? How battalions of RTR are left these days?

Re: Whither the RTR?

[pindar.livejournal.com]

The RTR (Royal Tank Regiment for the unininitiated) are still referred to as "The People's Cavalry" because you don't have to have a private income or attended a certain school or have a family title to be commissioned into them.

The Cav regts still have a lot of officers from wealthy backgrounds, and the mess life is both good and expensive, but the reality is like any regiment they would rather have good officers lead their men than wealthy. Being "to the right of the line" is still a phrase you hear, though now it is called "G3 snobbery" (G3 being the staff branch designator for operations, the role that the teeth arms of the infantry and cavalry seem to think is dominated by them alone - though anyone in any of the Close Support regiments of the Royal Logistics Corps who are in the forward echelon OrBat would strongly disagree as the G3/G4 line is blurred). The snobbery now stems more from the role of your cap-badge than the societal backgruond of it's officer recruiting base.

[zoje-george.livejournal.com]

I worked with loads of (retired, active, and reserve) military men and women, most of them Air Force, Navy, and National Guard, and Air National Guard -- officers, NCOs and one of my bosses was a Staff Sargeant (now Master Sargeant, I think and he, like you, was under a great deal of pressure to move up to that position). There's gentle ribbing amongst all the services and classes. About the meanest slanging I heard was from a former AF officer who was highly offended that I'd confused another co-worker's service history as retired Coast Guard officer and called him retired AF, "Don't ever compare a Coastie to the Air Force." But that guy was an ass in other areas too (including objecting to women in the workplace), he had issues.

Aside from that one thing though, I never, ever heard any of these former officers make derogatory comments about NCOs or any other rank, in fact, they were often quite protective of their fellow service men and women no matter what rank they currently or formerly held.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

This from a guy who'd been in the AF? Hee-hee.

The standard ribbing we give guys who come to us from the Air Force is tell people they decided to finally join the military.

TK

[zoje-george.livejournal.com]

Hey, I said the guy had issues. Even my dad (former AF mechanic) sniggered at that one.

Fortunately, the Coastie was incredibly good natured and didn't take it hard.

[pindar.livejournal.com]

We just tell the RAF that like most public sector services they are ripe for being privatised.

After all what is the RAF for?

Air Traffic Control? sell it to NATS
Enginering: 3rd and some 2nd line maintenance is now already in the private sector
Police: give it to the MOD Police and the gate security to Securicor
Admin: sell it to Capita RAS
RAF Regt: don't make me laugh! already competeing with the Royal Artillery for a redundant air defence role
Transport and tanking: lease it and hire the pilots from BA/Virgin

the only thing left is the point bomby bits, and even they won't fly during the day, in bad weather, or at night incase they collide with something or are seen and shot down.

[sunfell.livejournal.com]

As a former NCO myself, I know exactly what you mean by 'can-do' and 'backbone'. I was nagged to get a commission myself, but knew that I would be miserable as an officer. And when I got out, I was nagged to get into the management tier of the retail store I worked for. I tried, but the District Manager was a sexist asshole who didn't want any girls in his boys club.

I have found my niche in my state job, where I am #2 on the 'totem pole' and couldn't be happier. My immediate manager is a retired Army major- a 'Nam vet and Calvary officer. And our sysadmin is a retired Master Sergeant. The three of us have the 'can-do' attitude that is really needed during the bursts of heavy activity we get- and our boss thinks we hung the moon.

If there is any 'class' awareness here, it's mostly that of time in service. The folks who have worked for the Bureau longest have the most respect. Then we have the attorneys, the staff heads, the legislators and their leadership, and finally us. But most of the time, no one gives anyone else any grief, and if a new member tries it, he or she is quickly corrected.

[jeffreyab.livejournal.com]

"I might take a Warrant, but they are changing the Warrant Corps so much I may not do that either."

How are they changing the Warrant Corps.?

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Lesee...

At WO2 they give them a commission. They aren't demanding one be an NCO in the field one is joining (there is an open call for anyone who wants to be a Signal Warrant).

Warrants now wear branch insignia, not the eagle.

Other stuff which is making them more Officer Lite, than Warrant.

TK

[jeffreyab.livejournal.com]

So are they more in the chain of command rather than being highly trained specialists then?

[desert-vixen.livejournal.com]

My husband, as you have read, is off to Warrant School really soon. I'm torn because on one hand, his expertise and skill at teaching, explaining, and doing the job will make him a great WO. And the pay raise is nice, I cannot lie about that.
On the other hand... my Army is losing a damned fine NCO, something I find there aren't enough of.

Neither of us would be happy as an officer. We both like too much of the nuts and bolts working with people thing. The only circumstance I'm considering a commission under is entry to the JAG Corps.

The Navy guy needs to go steer into a lighthouse or something.

DV

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I am torn.

Thirteen years ago, being a Warrant was tempting as all get out. These days, not so much. The money would be nice (as would the default increase in respect), but the shift of the Corps to more of a managing branch, like the Officer Corps, instead of a mentoring, leading, doing branch bothers me.

The shift to wearing branch insignia, instead of the eagles, well that bothers me, a lot. It means that one starts to pigeonhole people, to see a guy who's a Supply Warrant, or a Chemical Warrant, as opposed to a WO4.

Teaching I could still do as a warrant, but I'd be sidelined into OMTs and the like. Not so bad in the field, but hell on earth in the rear, where one is doing OER support docs and counting paperclips.

TK

Funny about warrants.

[killslowly.livejournal.com]

One of our mutual friends just got his "Oath of Office" and I just finished processing the documents, making him a full fledged "Mister".

He, will make an excellent Warrant. But sadly, working with chiefs in Iraq was not a good experience. My general understanding/perception was that the chiefs were former NCOs who did not want to be NCOs anymore. Lazy, elititst pricks who were good paperpushers, but awfull operators.

But the Warrant Corps is still a good idea. Maybe, when I loose some pounds, I will go for it.

[(Anonymous)]

I know it's bad to comment on an older post, but I just stumbled onto this. I've heard this same reasoning before, but think about what you'll do once you hit E-8/E-9. Those involve even more managing and staff positions... being in lots of meetings, going through stacks of NCOERs, etc. As a Warrant you get to "move up" in the world while still being able to focus on the technical aspects of your field. And the branch insignia isn't an issue with ACU's since you just wear your rank. I would actually prefer to be "pigeonholed" since I'm a technical expert in a specific area. I don't want people to come to me about aviation or ordnance because that's not my specialization.

[ckd]

When my brother had his pinning (Army 2LT via ROTC), his first salutes were from a retired Army CSM and a retired AF CMS, both friends of the family. He knew the value of senior NCOs, yes he did. We both do, but he lives with it each day.

Our father joined the Army as a WO (Medical Service Corps, medevac pilot) and later got his commission, retiring at MAJ.

Me, I'm the civilian of the bunch[1], and have recognized a similar situation in my life; I tried being a team lead for a while, but it didn't work out. I now fill a role more similar to a senior NCO, since I have the technical expertise and the ability to mentor but don't work well in dealing with the administrivia and other stuff. (Hmm, maybe if I'd had a good XO type? Ah well.)

[1] Lots of Army folks in my family. Immediate family? 1 retired MAJ, one current CPT, one retired Army wife (and you know that's as much a job as anything in uniform). Uncles? One retired MAJ, one retired USMC LTC. Cousins? One reserve CPT, one USMC MAJ. You get the idea. No squids, no wing wipers.

[wcg.livejournal.com]

Terry? He can go pound sand.

Some of us know better.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

He got lucky. My first telling off was swallowed in the eather. When I tried to reconstruct it the first heat of annoyance was cooled and the more salty turns of rhetoric were lost.

He lost all chance of gaining respect when he tried to imply some lesser value of not me, for being an NCO, but of my rank for being in the Guard.

TK