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pecuniumRecent reading (The Interrogators, by Chris Mackey... that will be a different post) had me pondering terror, as a tactic, and a question by antiquated_tory makes my thoughts on it more relevant.
What makes terrorism terrorism. This was addressed by some question and answer in my post about the mail with the device to make it ignite on opening (a whole new meaning to "flame wars").
And what of groups like the IRA?
Is there an acceptable use for terror?
Maybe.
When Michael Collins (to use the IRA as an example, because it's a subject near and dear to my Irish descended heart) was attacking the British he was using a form of terror. What the guerrillas in Spain did against the French when Napoleon invaded. It was more targeted than they were, but it was still aimed at those who were directly involved in the ruling of British Ireland.
As such, while unconventional, it was still war, and I could; had I been alive, have supported them with a clear conscience.
These days the Provos are in another kind of fight, one which is indiscriminate, and doesn't have such clear aims. They want the British out of N. Ireland, but they aren't trying to make a direct fight with the people running the show. In fact they don't always target those in N. Ireland (which isn't really required, they could make members of Parliament, who support the continuation of the status quo targets of assasination... I don't think I'd approve, but it would be a more legitimate fight... more akin to a war).
I'm a soldier, in the right context I am a legal target for some pretty indiscriminate lethal force (a 122mm rocket is not what anyone would call a precision weapon... neither is a hand grenade, it's just a matter of scale). If the Provos were attacking just soldiers, and administrators, and the government which supports and pays for it... it would be (in my mind) a form of legitimate struggle (none of this means I think such a thing is a good idea. The 80ish years since the founding of an independent south have changed the equation, as have the tactics of the Provos).
Which, I guess, defines what I mean by terrorism. I, as a soldier, have explicitly accepted that there are situations where killing people to gain my ends are acceptable. Some of those means are terrible, but those are the rules of the game.
Groups who try to sway an entire people without accepting a concomitant risk (and suicide as a tactic doesn't count... unless the target is of a military nature), people whose specific targets are the non-players (civilians in a war are different, one of the reasons I disagree with calling the struggle with bin Laden, et alia a war), that's terrorism.
And it's a thing to be eradicated, at its root if possible, but by its branches when they bear their bitter fruit.
antiquated_tory makes my thoughts on it more relevant.What makes terrorism terrorism. This was addressed by some question and answer in my post about the mail with the device to make it ignite on opening (a whole new meaning to "flame wars").
And what of groups like the IRA?
Is there an acceptable use for terror?
Maybe.
When Michael Collins (to use the IRA as an example, because it's a subject near and dear to my Irish descended heart) was attacking the British he was using a form of terror. What the guerrillas in Spain did against the French when Napoleon invaded. It was more targeted than they were, but it was still aimed at those who were directly involved in the ruling of British Ireland.
As such, while unconventional, it was still war, and I could; had I been alive, have supported them with a clear conscience.
These days the Provos are in another kind of fight, one which is indiscriminate, and doesn't have such clear aims. They want the British out of N. Ireland, but they aren't trying to make a direct fight with the people running the show. In fact they don't always target those in N. Ireland (which isn't really required, they could make members of Parliament, who support the continuation of the status quo targets of assasination... I don't think I'd approve, but it would be a more legitimate fight... more akin to a war).
I'm a soldier, in the right context I am a legal target for some pretty indiscriminate lethal force (a 122mm rocket is not what anyone would call a precision weapon... neither is a hand grenade, it's just a matter of scale). If the Provos were attacking just soldiers, and administrators, and the government which supports and pays for it... it would be (in my mind) a form of legitimate struggle (none of this means I think such a thing is a good idea. The 80ish years since the founding of an independent south have changed the equation, as have the tactics of the Provos).
Which, I guess, defines what I mean by terrorism. I, as a soldier, have explicitly accepted that there are situations where killing people to gain my ends are acceptable. Some of those means are terrible, but those are the rules of the game.
Groups who try to sway an entire people without accepting a concomitant risk (and suicide as a tactic doesn't count... unless the target is of a military nature), people whose specific targets are the non-players (civilians in a war are different, one of the reasons I disagree with calling the struggle with bin Laden, et alia a war), that's terrorism.
And it's a thing to be eradicated, at its root if possible, but by its branches when they bear their bitter fruit.
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no subject
Date: 2004-09-23 12:14 am (UTC)I'm not. One doesn't wage war against things (be they drugs, poverty, or terrorism) one wage wars against a nations. Against individiuals, and non-nation groups one engages in law-enforcement. The British still haven't really figured this out in N. Ireland and the successes we've let terrorists have (to include, sort of, the Provos) has merely convinced them that such things work.
re the IRA:"I would say that Americans funding such a group so they can set off bombs in the capital of our staunchest ally is, well, peculiar at the least."
Not at all. Given the history, the cause of most of the Irish who came to the States being a sense that they could stay in their country to die (or to live on the sufferance of the British) and a long (mostly ill-timed, though always viciously repressed, even when basically peaceful, e.g. Wolf Tone and the Rising of '98) history of active resistance to the British (the story round the dinner table is that my Mother's Grandfather had to leave because he was far too similar in name and appearance to someone wanted for killing a rent-collector. If this was the case, or he was actually on the lam for murder, well I never got to ask him, he having died in the 1920s) it's no surprise they kept that animosity.
More amusing to me are the Nationalist friends I have, who are also anglophiles... a more confused lot you never saw.
Let's define our enemy here. We are fighting against militant Islamicism.
I dislike that formulation. In part because it becomes self-filfilling. The Chechens are becoming militant "islamicists" {which I dislike because it implies an urge to proslytise which I see more in the militant, "christiantics" than I ever have among the Muslims I've dealt with... even the ones on the other side of the table from me}, not so much because they are Islamic, but because only the most devout (and not all are radical, one of the americans who went to Chechnya on jihad, offered his services to the FBI/CIA in the effort to get to Al Qaeda, before That Tuesday) are willing to live the lifestyle of a rebel soldier.
Would attention to the plight of Iraqis, and continued engagement in the difficulties of the Palestinian question (created by Arabs, and worsened by Isrealis) have prevented bin Laden from attacking us? No. But it might have kept the run of the mill Arab from thinking it justified.
And that is the root at which the evil needs to be dug up, the branch which rises from that despair is twisted, warped and bent to ends most would rather not see.
More importantly than the training of our own imams (and founding madrasses here would be beyond the pale. Seperation of Church and state, to say nothing of the tearing of hair and gnashing of teeth the Religious Right would make... It would be seen as an attempt to subvert Islam, and suffer from a slew of unintended consequences, of the worst sort) would be an active effort to show the mass of americans that Islam is not, inherently, the source of maddened fanatics who want to kill us all.
Paying more attention to the terrorists in our midst might help too. Pointing out that fanatacism, not Islam, is at the root of that evil.
TK
Ireland
Date: 2004-09-23 03:19 pm (UTC)...one wage wars against a nations. Against individiuals, and non-nation groups one engages in law-enforcement. The British still haven't really figured this out in N. Ireland...
But I thought the Brits had always insisted that they were engaged in law enforcement. A couple British friends of mine went through the roof over the War on Terror for exactly this reason--their government had been trying for years to deny any sort of military status to IRA fighters, insisting they were criminals pure and simple. Of course, using the army to suppress them does rather belie that...
More amusing to me are the Nationalist friends I have, who are also anglophiles
They'd be less confused over here. Or maybe more so. British and Irish expats naturally socialize. There are generally more British expats but more and better Irish pubs so the former gather in the latter, which usually have a mixed Irish, British and local staff. Since they drink the same beer, watch the same sports, grew up with the same TV programmes etc. it's not that surprising. Oh, not to mention most Irish I know have lived in Britain. I swear, during the World Cup I saw almost as many Irish flags as Union Jacks in London. Well, there were also the couple drunk lads at Earl's Court singing "We hate Roman Catholics" to celebrate the recent English victory...over Denmark(?!)...but being drunk, stupid and English, they were probably only looking for a fight.
I don't know if you're on IM but I have tons of rambling nonsense like this which is best transmitted through that medium so if you are REALLY BORED I'd be pleased to chat anytime, time zone differences permitting.
Re: Ireland
Date: 2004-09-23 05:09 pm (UTC)They'd be less confused over here. Or maybe more so. British and Irish expats naturally socialize.
These aren't expats, they are American citizens.
But I thought the Brits had always insisted that they were engaged in law enforcement. A couple British friends of mine went through the roof over the War on Terror for exactly this reason--their government had been trying for years to deny any sort of military status to IRA fighters, insisting they were criminals pure and simple. Of course, using the army to suppress them does rather belie that...
I have friends who've served in N. Ireland. The British made a point that it was "law enforcement" but then passed laws which were meant to get around the way they were using the Army, and waging a war. A low key sort of thing.
The way they are doing/did it was such that all of the not obviously loyal were suspect, and made to feel second class citizens. Miscarriages of justice did nothing to prevent the perception. If they'd been serious about it being a police matter, the army wouldn't have been there, and cops would have done the heavy lifting.
On the other hand, as you point out, we've made terrorists legitmate soldiers (and then tried to fix it by creating, out of whole cloth, a new term, "unlawful combatants" which Geneva doesn't have, and by which we try to say Geneva doesn't apply. Having our cake, and eating it) which is a poor precedent.
The result is a host of secondary places, where the islamic portions of society weren't radical, and are now becoming so.
TK
Terrorism
Date: 2004-09-23 03:36 pm (UTC)I dislike that formulation. In part because it becomes self-fulfilling.
This is kind of what I meant when I complained about the 'War on Terror' pulling in a bunch of non-related conflicts that are local in nature. Unfortunately I didn't think through that a 'struggle with Islamicism' does exactly the same thing. Chechnya, as you say, is a prime example; it's been going on for ages and was never about religion, or never primarily so.
Here I'm going to cheat and post a link to a BB post by a friend of mine who's very much a Russia wonk, because pretty much everything I know about Chechnya I know from her. (Also it's a great excuse to plug my home-away-from-home Board.)
However, I will say this--there is a brand of Saudi-funded radicalism that has been trying for years to increase its influence by subverting local struggles to their own global framework. By saying this I am not in the least disagreeing with your point that:
Would attention to the plight of Iraqis, and continued engagement in the difficulties of the Palestinian question (created by Arabs, and worsened by Isrealis) have prevented bin Laden from attacking us? No. But it might have kept the run of the mill Arab from thinking it justified.
And that is the root at which the evil needs to be dug up, the branch which rises from that despair is twisted, warped and bent to ends most would rather not see.
To wit, there is a heck of a lot of suffering in most of the Islamic world, it fuels desperation and we are seen as either not caring or actively contributing to it.
What to do about this is a heck of a question. Alleviating the plight of the Iraqis by invading their country may not have been the best idea, though the American Enterprise Institute evidently thought it would work. Could it if we'd committed a lot more resources (in the broadest sense) at the beginning? I expect you have a much better idea of that than I do.
Re: training imams. This is more something the Dutch started for internal reasons, as they were a bit tired of imams from Morocco who can't speak Dutch coming over and denouncing Dutch society. The Brits are considering something similar. Of course, they have state-sponsored religious training and we don't. So maybe wasn't that appropriate.
Re: showing the mass of Americans that Islam is not inherently a source of bloodthirsty fanatics. Couldn't agree more, but that might be part of the bigger problem that Americans tend to be dead poorly educated about the rest of the world. Of course, there has been a fairly effective campaign to educate against racism for years; no reason not to have a similar campaign on religions.
And our home grown-fanatics are definitely an underrated problem, though again I think they might be in part produced by a widespread parochialism, as is fanaticism in general, come to think of it (my friend Shahida complaining about her 'village idiot cousins' back in Pakistan who went to fight the Americans...).
Mind like a steel colander
Date: 2004-09-23 03:39 pm (UTC)Re: Terrorism
Date: 2004-09-23 05:11 pm (UTC)TK
Re: Terrorism
Date: 2004-09-27 10:57 pm (UTC)