My god, but the stupid is past burning...
May. 26th, 2010 09:45 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
pecuniumI am going to assume you are all sitting down for this.
I am going to assume you have neither liquids in your mouth, nor delicate objects near to hand.
Because I have, I think, encountered one of the most incomprehensible arguments of Libertarian MRA... nonsense is too generous. Words fail me.
First... realise that Roissy thinks this thing was a good observation on male female relationships.
Second, and this is the part which is hard to fathom... this guy is arguing that... no, I can't sum up; it would take too long. I'll have to quote him.
Rape is equality
It's not hyperbole. It's not poorly phrased (thought, expressed, whatever rationalisation you might like to get around the bald-faced horror of that concept) he defends it in comments.
His thesis is that men have money, power, social leverage, etc, and women are taking it away from them, so; to balance the books, and establish a truly equal footing men need to take something from women. That would be sex. If you take away men's resources and status in the interest of "equality" then we need to introduce sexual coercion to reestablish sexual fairness, if not equality, and, "Rape is making the best of a bad job and men know this instinctively. And it does not take an awful lot of men with my mindset to make life as unpleasant for women as it is for men. Think about it -- do you women really want equality? If you you aren't willing to put up with men demanding the equal right to have sex anytime we want just as women can, then doing things such as forcibly dissolving Norwegian companies who don't have at least 40% women in the boardrooms and other affirmative action is probably a bad move.
The buried ideas in that are croggling. When you read further, in the comment you see that women have gotten what equality they have not because it is just, but because they have stolen it (by force... he's a Libertarian, so the gov't passing a law which prevents discrimination is a taking, a la Rand Paul. There is a whole lot of evil in that.
When you parse out his thoughts, they boil down to women aren't really people.
For every female beneficiary of affirmative action there is, by definition, a male victim. I am not just speaking for myself. , I think he's trying to say women aren't actually capable of being competent at anything, esp. when I see, "still you are saying that it is more OK for a man to be forcibly stripped of his money, status and power in the name of "equality," because he doesn't really "own" it, while a woman's assets -- her body -- is inviolable because she owns it. So you are saying that a man cannot even in principle own anything valuable and inviolable that the opposite sex wants. I am arguing that those assets are morally equal and that if it is OK use affirmative action to redistribute male assets to women, even if men have earned these assets though superior motivation and harder work because we desperately need them to attract a mate, and probably because of superior ability on average in many profitable fields, then it is also OK for men to forcibly take what we want from women, which is sex. ."
Note the weasel words, "probably because of superior ability on average." The mind boggles. The thing in there which is so sad is the idea that the only thing women want is material goods.
Hogwash. I have never been rich. I have never been more than tolerably comfortable. This has not kept me from having a fair number of women find me interesting, and sexually desirable. I have even (shock of shocks) been able to have a moderate amount of romantic, and some purely libidinous, success with women I was interested in. Not having to put up with, "some Alpha's cast-offs" as Roissy and Berge seem to think ought to be my light (I'm no Cary Grant, no Brad Pitt and no Donald Trump. I am not an asshole to other men, nor a jerk to women. By the model they have I am supposed to be teaching myself to enjoy enforced abstinence as a way of life, so I can stop suffering the, "pangs of dispris'd love. If this my life has been so abstinent as all that, I'll be happy to live in the monastery).
What really irritates me (the equality = men are losing out so women need to be raped thing doesn't irritate me. It makes me both angry, and pitiful. Angry that this little twit can be seriously arguing it [even as a gedanken experiment and pitiful that he is so pathetic in his failures) is that he can believe this would somehow make things equal. He doesn't really seem to think it would make things better.
Which means he doesn't think women should be equal. Since he is a libertarian, and so thinks all people should be allowed to do what they will, and holds that women aren't entitled to equality (at least not in a world worth living in) it must therefore follow that he doesn't really think women are people.
Which is, actually, so blindingly obvious from the get go that I wonder at my being upset enough to waste all your time pointing it out.
But, to close, lets posit a little thought experiment of our own... would Eivind Berge be willing to have been born a women, in the present age where they are, by his lights, in the catbird seat; they have "forced" equality economically, and situational superiority sexually/emotionally.
Anyone want to take the bet he wants to be a woman? I'd even be willing to offer odds.
I am going to assume you have neither liquids in your mouth, nor delicate objects near to hand.
Because I have, I think, encountered one of the most incomprehensible arguments of Libertarian MRA... nonsense is too generous. Words fail me.
First... realise that Roissy thinks this thing was a good observation on male female relationships.
Second, and this is the part which is hard to fathom... this guy is arguing that... no, I can't sum up; it would take too long. I'll have to quote him.
Rape is equality
It's not hyperbole. It's not poorly phrased (thought, expressed, whatever rationalisation you might like to get around the bald-faced horror of that concept) he defends it in comments.
His thesis is that men have money, power, social leverage, etc, and women are taking it away from them, so; to balance the books, and establish a truly equal footing men need to take something from women. That would be sex. If you take away men's resources and status in the interest of "equality" then we need to introduce sexual coercion to reestablish sexual fairness, if not equality, and, "Rape is making the best of a bad job and men know this instinctively. And it does not take an awful lot of men with my mindset to make life as unpleasant for women as it is for men. Think about it -- do you women really want equality? If you you aren't willing to put up with men demanding the equal right to have sex anytime we want just as women can, then doing things such as forcibly dissolving Norwegian companies who don't have at least 40% women in the boardrooms and other affirmative action is probably a bad move.
The buried ideas in that are croggling. When you read further, in the comment you see that women have gotten what equality they have not because it is just, but because they have stolen it (by force... he's a Libertarian, so the gov't passing a law which prevents discrimination is a taking, a la Rand Paul. There is a whole lot of evil in that.
When you parse out his thoughts, they boil down to women aren't really people.
For every female beneficiary of affirmative action there is, by definition, a male victim. I am not just speaking for myself. , I think he's trying to say women aren't actually capable of being competent at anything, esp. when I see, "still you are saying that it is more OK for a man to be forcibly stripped of his money, status and power in the name of "equality," because he doesn't really "own" it, while a woman's assets -- her body -- is inviolable because she owns it. So you are saying that a man cannot even in principle own anything valuable and inviolable that the opposite sex wants. I am arguing that those assets are morally equal and that if it is OK use affirmative action to redistribute male assets to women, even if men have earned these assets though superior motivation and harder work because we desperately need them to attract a mate, and probably because of superior ability on average in many profitable fields, then it is also OK for men to forcibly take what we want from women, which is sex. ."
Note the weasel words, "probably because of superior ability on average." The mind boggles. The thing in there which is so sad is the idea that the only thing women want is material goods.
Hogwash. I have never been rich. I have never been more than tolerably comfortable. This has not kept me from having a fair number of women find me interesting, and sexually desirable. I have even (shock of shocks) been able to have a moderate amount of romantic, and some purely libidinous, success with women I was interested in. Not having to put up with, "some Alpha's cast-offs" as Roissy and Berge seem to think ought to be my light (I'm no Cary Grant, no Brad Pitt and no Donald Trump. I am not an asshole to other men, nor a jerk to women. By the model they have I am supposed to be teaching myself to enjoy enforced abstinence as a way of life, so I can stop suffering the, "pangs of dispris'd love. If this my life has been so abstinent as all that, I'll be happy to live in the monastery).
What really irritates me (the equality = men are losing out so women need to be raped thing doesn't irritate me. It makes me both angry, and pitiful. Angry that this little twit can be seriously arguing it [even as a gedanken experiment and pitiful that he is so pathetic in his failures) is that he can believe this would somehow make things equal. He doesn't really seem to think it would make things better.
Which means he doesn't think women should be equal. Since he is a libertarian, and so thinks all people should be allowed to do what they will, and holds that women aren't entitled to equality (at least not in a world worth living in) it must therefore follow that he doesn't really think women are people.
Which is, actually, so blindingly obvious from the get go that I wonder at my being upset enough to waste all your time pointing it out.
But, to close, lets posit a little thought experiment of our own... would Eivind Berge be willing to have been born a women, in the present age where they are, by his lights, in the catbird seat; they have "forced" equality economically, and situational superiority sexually/emotionally.
Anyone want to take the bet he wants to be a woman? I'd even be willing to offer odds.
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no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 11:18 pm (UTC)Edit: Ah, I didn't read the comments. Nice to see that he's (completely not) consistent.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-30 02:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-30 03:43 am (UTC)Man
Date: 2010-05-29 07:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 07:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 07:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 07:50 pm (UTC)hey, i'm a tranny. i can almost certainly state; WE DON"T WANT HIM.
don't try to pawn that excrement off on us. he is singular, and should remain such.
no other trans-person i know has that...confusion about why women want to have sex, with men, with each other, or any combination you or he would care to think up.
so, please, rethink that last. please.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 07:57 pm (UTC)Shorter... women aren't people, men are; so assaulting them is wrong.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:01 pm (UTC)Okay. I've brewed myself some tea and I'm still hung up.
So, men have power, money, status and social leverage. And women have less of these things (on average). Women have been attempting to gain power, money, status and social leverage, and this (in Berge's argument) appears to be a zero-sum game - they have to take it from men.
I don't buy that power, money, status etc. are zero-sum commodities. But if they were, for the sake of argument, when women acquired some, that would make things more equal.
So when Berge says that men have to commit rape in order to redress their losses, that isn't reasserting equality, that's reasserting the upper hand. On a societal level, that's a fairly accurate description of rape's overall effects. Most of us, however, agree that those are bad things.
I don't think Eivind Berge wants to be a woman. I think he hates and fears women so deeply that he can hardly speak to us. In fact, I would bet that Eivind Berge is the guy who explains to all of his friends that other people are nice to attractive women just because they're pretty and he's not superficial like that, he's mean to them on principle because they deserve it. This speech probably also includes a section arguing that he knows pretty women are all evil because they won't sleep with him. If, by some chance, Berge actually has gotten laid, he almost certainly caught his partner wanting something - an orgasm, emotional intimacy, a goodnight kiss, a little help when her hands are full, whatever. In conversation with Berge, this desire features as Exhibit A in the evidence that women are selfish. Berge thinks that men who fulfill these desires for the women in their lives are suckers. He desperately needs money, power and social leverage to attract a mate because he hasn't got anything personal on offer. This mass of neuroses serves as an excuse for never, ever actually having a conversation with anyone female.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:06 pm (UTC)I'd be willing to allow as rape may be a male right...as long as concealed carry and use at any level of force of any caliber (and/or a taser/mini-guillotine combo pack available at fine retailers near you!) is considered a female right.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:08 pm (UTC)I just wanted to say thanks to you for writing about it because I love it when I see a dude say "hey, this is not okay, and here's why."
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:13 pm (UTC)I have nothing to say. Wow.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:16 pm (UTC)[runs off to see which of my friends can build one]
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:21 pm (UTC)Like this guy, fer instance.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:26 pm (UTC)The comment which made this plain was about how to deal with affirmative action in relation to minorities. He said it needs to stop, but no need to engage in violence (the specific question was lynching/burning. I am not sure, as he is a Norwegian, if he really understands this; though he is a racist; all the "real" rapes in Norway are by non-western immigrants. Honest, he said that).
He the added, he might need to rethink that, if the minorities "got more than their share of white women."
He isn't unattractive, to look at, but his inner demons must leap out at the women he hits on, and the loathing he has for them as people is probably why he can't even manage the simple knack of getting laid.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:33 pm (UTC)For the life of me though, I cannot imagine what kind of experience he had as a child that would lead to this kind of world view.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:35 pm (UTC)i'm sure it will hurt if you do.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 08:39 pm (UTC)Some guys will never "get it",
Nor, should they.