On, "rape" (graphic language)

[pecunium]

I've been doing some catching up of Lj (for reasons complicated, and nothing to do with people here, I've been less than active since March, or so).


One of the posts I saw was desert_vixen's response to Judgemental Rape Counselor

Ignoring her (the counselor's) priggish desire to force other people to keep me from what she sees as the near occasion of sin... I have a few thoughts on some of what she says about Date Rape.

1: She has no clue.

Ok... now that we have my reasoned response out of the way, we can get down to details.

I'm talking about date rape, so-called sexual assault, and driving a man - when both parties are often drunk and/or on drugs - into a frenzy, then primly saying, "No means no!") Because these women have no common sense, men's lives are litterally being destroyed with criminal records that will follow them the rest of their days.

Boo-fucking-hoo. Want to avoid a record... don't rape.

I understand that this is hard to deal with... at an abstract (and at a concrete) level, people negotiate for things. Someone has something you want, and it's not a simple transaction (You state your price, I give you money, or not); one negotiates. My friend wants to go to lunch and then hang out in a pub. I want to do breakfast and then go for a stroll.

One of us will be giving up some of what we want.

Same thing can happen with sex. One partner isn't interested; might be a right now issue. Might be that what I want to do isn't what she wants to do. Might be I don't like her, "that way".

There is room to talk. A really rigid understanding of "reluctance = absolute cessation of conversation" is going to make people unsure. When I was in college, and date rape was just rising into the general conciousness I was scared silly.

Back then, it scared me, because people (esp. young/immature people) make silly choices,
and have bad sex (not always badly done, just poorly chosen). What if I was pushy with my interest and she said yes and then decided, ex post facto it was rape?

Now, that I am older... I don't worry about it.

Because society isn't fair about rape. Since it's hard as hell to get a conviction for stranger rape in an alley/school gym/of a girl passed out cold. I doubt there is going to be a wave of convictions for a woman who says, "I said yes, but only because I was drunk, and didn't really want to."

So the guy who actually gets charged with date rape... (at the risk of appearing to say that where there's smoke there's fire), I'm sympathetic, but he'll get his day in court. The odds are, if charges are filed, the case isn't as simple as, "she changed her mind." So I'm not that concerned if he gets charged.

So here's some advice on how to avoid being an "accidental" rapist.

Don't push too hard. If she's not in the mood now, a full court press isn't likely to make her so. If you want something more than a one-time shag, it's straight up counterproductive.

Make sure she's capable of giving informed consent (goes the same for you; perhaps double. Recerational pharmaceuticals, including alcohol go at the top of the trouble list – they make people's answers less reliable. They also hinder analytic thinking). Don't do anything when "happy" you haven't already done with that person.

If she says no – stop. It is that easy. If you're hot and bothered... aching from need and desire... go home and have a wank. If it's so bad you can't wait that long... find a bathroom, park the car; do something and take care of business.

No, it's not as much fun, but you won't have any real regrets (maybe some wistful thoughts about what might have been). More to the point, if you leave; there won't be any cops knocking on your door to talk to you about the rape allegation.

Rape is not an induced crime. Rapists commit it. If you don't want your sons to be rapists... teach them what rape means, and tell them not to do it.

It's that simple.

Comments

[supergee.livejournal.com]

Your first link doesn't work because it has some extra stuff at the end.

[martyn44.livejournal.com]

It is. Indeed it is.

[glinda-w.livejournal.com]

Rape is not an induced crime. Rapists commit it. If you don't want your sons to be rapists... teach them what rape means, and tell them not to do it.

It's that simple.

Thank you.

[feonixrift.livejournal.com]

I'm really glad to see someone (you) pointing out that men can think with something other than the lower head.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

is fixed. Was strange, it looked right, but I had to re-enter it from scratch to correct. I think an invisible line break (from edit) was hiding in it.

Thanks.

[shunra.livejournal.com]

Absolute agreement from me on that.

Rape is not about sex, it's about control - the kind of control that ignores "no". What part of "no" isn't the guy understanding? Women are not vessels for men's passion - women are equal actors in the drama of social interaction. Date rape means that the rapist decides at some point that he is the boss of his victim's body. That sort of attitude is very dangerous to society at large, I think.

[texaslawchick.livejournal.com]

When I was in high school, the guidance counselors put all the seniors in a room and closed the door to teachers, parents and everyone else. They told us about some of the things to expect in college and some of the things that may make the transition easier. Make your bed in the morning, make sure your class load isn't too high at first, take stuff to remind you of home. We were at a very snooty, very exclusive, very rigorous private school, and 100% of us were going to go off to pretty selective schools the next year.

And then they talked about date rape in very, very stark, practical terms. They talked about how much defense lawyers cost. They talked about how much the cops would ask questions that were so personal that they'd border on offensive. They talked about the complete loss of reputation and possible media attention. They talked about how our grades would suffer and some of us wouldn't be able to handle it and have to drop out of school. They talked about how jail wasn't that much fun and employers don't tend to hire ex-convicts. They talked about how everything we'd worked hard for would be pretty much thrown out the window if there was ever a hint of an allegation of date rape against one of the boys.

The lesson was--and it was very plainly articulated so no one could claim that they misunderstood--unless you're absolutely sure as shit that she'd hold your hand to lead the way to fuck you sober, do not touch. Because that lack of surety could pretty much ruin your life.

If I were male, I would have been terrified and asked for sworn affidavits of assent from all my partners after that talk. As a female, I felt a little more empowered, though not that much, because I'd still have to deal with the cops and media and loss of privacy. I'd just swap out the defense attorney costs for the psychological and physicial trauma of having been raped. There was a lesson for me there to do as much as I could to avoid it as possible.

I don't know if other high schools are as blunt about it, but no one in my class could ever claim that he didn't know the risks of choosing a drunken girl at a party as a sexual partner.

I have no idea if the lecture worked or not. I was never sexually assualted (by a stranger or non-stranger), though I know way too many people who have been, and I was peripherally involved with a pretty campus-dividing date-rape case when I was in college. (I was the chair of the disciplinary appeals board, and heard a case stemming from an incident protesting kicking the alleged-rapist off campus.) I wonder sometimes if the alleged rapist in that case had heard my school's lecture would he have risked having sex with her that night?

[pnkrokhockeymom.livejournal.com]

Thanks, T. Srsly.

[starwatcher]

.
Yes. Thank you.
.

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

The lesson was--and it was very plainly articulated so no one could claim that they misunderstood--unless you're absolutely sure as shit that she'd hold your hand to lead the way to fuck you sober, do not touch. Because that lack of surety could pretty much ruin your life.

That's quite the lesson. Very impressive. I wonder if the lecture worked, too.

[fantasyecho.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this. Men need to say this more often.

If you read Hugo Schwyzer, he writes, "the opposite of rape is not consent, but enthusiasm." Somewhere else, I read, "if there's any confusion involved, there's no consent."

[ashiegrrrl.livejournal.com]

As a date-rape survivor, THANK YOU.

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

That's what I said. Both halves of it ...

[desert-vixen.livejournal.com]

The lesson was--and it was very plainly articulated so no one could claim that they misunderstood--unless you're absolutely sure as shit that she'd hold your hand to lead the way to fuck you sober, do not touch. Because that lack of surety could pretty much ruin your life.

This.

DV

[prodigal.livejournal.com]

Amen to everything you just wrote.

[inflectionpoint.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

I wish more people got this.

[tenderberry.livejournal.com]

There's another aspect to date-rape - when it occurs without being fueled by main/moral altering substances - when one of the participants, due to previous abuse of pretty much any sort, is afraid to say no or doesn't know that no is acceptable - and if saying no aces that person out of ones life this is a good thing -

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I must have been unclear. I don't believe (nor do I think I implied) that mind/mood altering substances are the sole catalyst for it.

I do think it's easier to end up in a date rape/near rape situation with them; esp. when one is young and less experienced in the effects.

[littlebreeze.livejournal.com]

In the heat of passion (in the middle of doing the DO) I said "no" in jest, I followed that with "stop" also part of the play, his reaction, he stopped, cold... crikey!

him, I love dearly and the respect he has shown me is phenomenal. We find other words to play with, "No" and "Stop" mean exactly that.

No means no, despite what the silly romance novels say, if you have to coerce someone you're on the wrong track and if they won't stop when you say no, even in jest, you're with the wrong person

[gracemcfee.livejournal.com]

Well said.

[songblaze.livejournal.com]

Yes.

I'm another survivor - I've noticed others answering here.

It takes a lot to make a date rape survivor. It doesn't take a lot to avoid making one - just remembering that the other person is another human being is all it takes.

I have, since then, been in situations where (because of the past abuse) I had trouble saying no or showing that I wanted to stop. I just put my hand on the center of his chest and pushed a little, and he stopped and said my name, looked in my eyes, gently stroked my hair, comforted me. He treated me like someone he loved. Like he believed that my well-being was more important than having sex right at that moment. So little to ask. (He went far above that minimum and held me while I just broke down)

I've also had guys who won't take no for an answer, won't accept boundaries, and then blame ME when I break things off. Because yes, what's wrong here is the fact that I'm a survivor, not that he's a pushy asshole bordering on abusing, certainly ignoring minor boundaries. My experience says that men who ignore minor boundaries have much less trouble ignoring major ones, and I'm not going to risk that.

[sharon-masters.livejournal.com]

i find it interesting that the conversation never veered into the woman that started the discussion with her "attitude".
WHY is that attitude back after we worked so hard to vanquish it 40 years ago???
WTF are we sitting around quietly saying things like "Well, you just don't understand" or "everyone is allowed their opinion" or a billion other things i hear (not HERE, but in life) that give us leeway to skirt being responsible and vocal and *aggressive* about stopping that kind of BS???

i spent the first 25 years of my life learning that one CAN fight City Hall, that one SHOULD question authority, and that quiet women don't make history.
i find it absurd that we now have a society where "go along to get along" is the norm again.

i am waiting for "plastic" to make a comeback.

As far as i am concerned, people can and should be able to walk around nude without fear of assault. Anything less is failure to raise our children well and control ourselves as humans.
Not nearly as much FUN as we would like, but then again, we chalk a lot of stupid shit up to "wanting spontaneous responses" and "having a good time" and "just being ourselves".
Not to mention, once you get honest with yourself it's amazing how many sexual partners are out there just waiting to have fun.