Basta

[pecunium]

The fat lady sang in New Jersey.

It ended as I knew it would, pretty much as it had too; the cast was too large to avoid the clichés. After the accusations of being a liar came the assertions of folly, and incompetence; of being "by the book" instead of "doing what really works."

So, as all I can do is repeat myself.. more elaborately, but with no more success, that's a wrap for me. Go poke at the piñata if you like (I'm not greedy, there might be some candy left), but rather than get my blood pressure up any more there, I'll look for some other windmill to tilt at.

Comments

[kodi]

That is so bizarre. 14 paragraphs explaining why criminal charges are inappropriate for the lawyers who drafted the memos (and I agree with much of the conclusion, if not the reasoning) and then a sudden expansion of the umbrella to all those who requested and relied on the memos?

[kodi]

(I see now that your post was inspired by the comments to the article, not the article itself. I normally browse with "comments to news articles and most especially opinion pieces" blinders firmly in place. Still, my bafflement at the article stands.)

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I think, if nothing else, they deserve sanction by the bar association. I think the only two outcomes which make sense are 1: Disbarrment for incompetence, or 2: Indicted for Conspiracy to Commit War Crimes in violation of the Conventions Against Torture (1987), and the War Crimes Act of 1998.

[kodi]

Oops, just noticed a serious typo in my comment. Should be "and I agree with much of the reasoning, if not the conclusion." I certainly agree that a conspiracy investigation would be warranted.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Ah... that makes much more sense.

[kate-schaefer.livejournal.com]

I know you know, because you've said it yourself before, but just as a reminder: what you wrote in this case was important, not for the effect it has on your interlocutor, whose mind is impenetrable, but for the effect it has on other people who read the exchange and think about it.

I don't comment on what you say about torture often, because it's a bit dull to keep saying, go, Terry! I agree with you! Sing it, brother! I assure you, I read every word nevertheless.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I know, and if I didn't keep that in mind, I'd just give it up.

But singing here is preaching to the choir (and sometimes the choir needs inspiring). So it's good to hear the choir appreciate it.

As you say, it's dull to keep saying it, but you manage to mention it in good ratio.

[stringmonkey.livejournal.com]

Wanker Boy wrote, "If torture is and was so unsuccessful in it's application, how come it continues to be used after thousands of years of application?"

It's not worth arguing with that idiot, but people have been questioning the effectiveness of torture for centuries. Sir Francis Walsingham, Spymaster to Elizabeth I (reigned 1568-1602) argued against it for much of his tenure, for the simple reason that it didn't work very well. And Sir Francis was nobody's bleeding-heart liberal. Among other things, he believed that drawing and quartering a convicted traitor and setting fire to his living entrails was an effective deterrent against domestic terrorism.

[libertango.livejournal.com]

I answer his question (my nick in thread is a reference to The Sandbaggers). I also ask him the flip side -- "If torture is so darned effective, why is there not one example from the thousands of years of historical record showing it to be so? If the evidence is so plentiful -- name three examples. (It'll be a lot more convincing if the sources aren't trying to justify their own actions. As you say, there should be corroboration from other sources.)"

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

And well done too.

[libertango.livejournal.com]

Dude! Who's got your back?

(I have the added advantage of the facts being on my side, but hey.)

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

His argument is goalpost-shifting. There are things for which torture is very effective -- extracting false confessions and getting people to say what you want them to say. That is the purpose for which it's been used for thousands of years. Where it doesn't work so well is in the matter of getting accurate intelligence information. As the quote goes, "Give me a few hours with that boy and a waterboard, and I'll have him confessing to multiple suicide attacks."

[yuripup.livejournal.com]

I always figure when taking on people like pmichaelis you don't really have a chance of changing their minds...but the silent majority of lurkers (the rule of thumb I had heard is about 4 lurkers to a poster).

I figure its their minds you are battling for and helping to sway.

Just skimming it looks like your usual excellent writing and I imagine that you convinced a lot of the lurkers there.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I know that. It's the real reason I wade into such places.

I even wrote a little piece about it, back in March, 2004

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Looking at what he said, before libertango lit him up, he's losing his sense of moral high ground. He's trying to pick up the, "you aren't who you say you are" meme, but that's weak (for him... the other one stood pat on calling me a lying-liberal, lefty-lawyer, and [while a bit battered] quit the field in good order), because he earlier accepted my basic bona fides and merely called my practical experience into account.

It's weak, because I put my name, my blog, and links to photos. In short I have the appearance of honesty. If someone wanted to, they could do some research, and test my claims against other evidence.

And it's damned long time to be trying to hold up a false-front.

[antonia-tiger.livejournal.com]

At least I'm getting examples of not-good characters for some stuff I'm writing. The weaseling self-justification.

I don't have any version of any real interrogator I might have encountered. I don't expect you to approve of the solutions that the "good guys" come up with. But it's a sort of story jam, and somebody decided to bring in a torturer. And now it's December 1939 with the Dowager Duchess of Stepney conspiring with two Kriegsmarine officers to carry out a jailbreak in a neutral port.

And various other skulduggery.

I've picked up other little bits from all the stuff triggered by the torture memo story. An account of somebody apparently broken by a SERE course. And then there's the real history that was warped to fit the AH setting: I should have remembered the way the 24-hour rule was used.

Any sufficiently complicated plot can be wrecked by the author.

Tje fun is in figuring out a fix the characters can use.

[lwj2.livejournal.com]

Thanks for what you've written on the matter.

[thatpotteryguy.livejournal.com]

Your posts here may be expounding religious doctrine to the temple singers for most, but I have found some degree of enlightenment from your words. Just wanted you to know that your efforts are not entirely wasted.

[fjm.livejournal.com]

Do you follow Margaret and Helen (http://margaretandhelen.wordpress.com/?p=1953)?

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Follow no. Aware of, and fond of, yes. That was a good one.

Thank you Terry

[https://me.yahoo.com/a/XKHeDa9sk5voat_6kXi9QyJniQ--#cb2c5 (from livejournal.com)]

I'm a regular reader/commenter over at NJ Voices and I want to thank you for taking the time to post the realities of torture. All too often the "24" pro-torture crowd are the loudest (and dumbest) in the room. It was so satisfying to read your comments after the many torture threads that are posted with an abundance of pro-torture ignorance. You came in there and ripped 'em up with your first hand experience. Thank you again.

Dion