pecunium | We get letters (updated)

We get letters (updated)

Ryan, the founder of Concientious Traveller, discovered the first piece I wrote.

He takes exceptions, and saw fit to send them to me. (you really ought to go and see the responses he's sent me)

He's offended that I said this was a scam, and asks what my problem is with his enterprise.

Ok, here are my specific problems: it's an insane idea which can never work; a mad enterprise which will, if actually undertaken, be lucky to end no more badly than a bunch of people in prison in someplace unpleasant.

That's the short version.

The long version.

What he is proposing is illegal. It's kidnapping people. To make it worse it's then taking them to some other place and making them prisoners of a different sort. They won't be refugees. They won't legally be allowed to go anyplace (except, pehaps, the place from whence they were stolen away). They will be at the mercy of those who stole them. It may be with the best of intentions, but that's what he proposes.

He claims to want to turn these girls into some sort of political players, people who will go home and reform the places from whence they came.

Not. Gonna. Happen.

When asked about getting passports for them (so they may attend university) the it goes like this:

Q: "But just because they are accepted to a university in Europe or the US doesn't mean that they'll be allowed to take up permanent residence. (How do you even propose to establish these children's identities, get birth certificates, passports etc., that will allow them to travel?)"

A: I never said they would. Now your asking very detailed information and it's not going to be answered, one as I don't deal with this part and secondly as this is not for public forums.

Not inspiring.

If he manages to kidnap some girls, they will be, at best (if all the madcap schemes work), like Ahmad Chalabi, seen as puppets for someone else's interest. At worst, they will go home, preach his brand of world reformation, and be locked up/killed, for being a threat to the gov't/society.

I'd love to see places like Burma become better places. Does anyone think I know enough about the situation to collect a bunch of "sex slaves" from Burma, take them to an island, where I've brought some others from Thailand, Laos, the Dominican Republic, etc, train them all; in, I assume, the same philosophical underpinnings of how the word ought to be (that's why I chose Plato's "Philosopher King" analogy, and they will be able to go home, to a society they were never fully a part of, and take over? All the while running a nature preserve and breeding up endangered animals to repopulate in the wild (I really like that touch, it gets the warm-fuzzie sorts of the "save the planet" sorts to buy into this).

No.

His responses elsewhere (this has become so my father tells me, a huge discussion at CouchSurfing because he's trying to recruit people to help him market Concientious Traveller, by selling them on the "altruistic" works of the subsidaries which will change the world by kidnapping children in the sex trade and brainwashing them into political missionaries for his utopic vision of a future world) don't make me feel any better about this.

Which was the other stuff, packed in there, which disturbing me.

What about the white girls in the same boat. There are women in, Japan Israel, Korea, and, I am sure, a few more places, who were lured with offers of jobs, and then forced into being prostitutes. I don't see mention of this.

I think it's because they are adults. Because they aren't likely to be pliable enough to be brainwashed into thinking they are going to be the salvation of the world.

I don't think it's concious version of the "White Man's Burden" and going out to help the poor, backwards Orientals join the civilised world, but that does seem to be part of the driving mindset.

I don't like the sex trade. I think the commodification of people is horrid. Going off on a vigilante raid to kidnap them, and then, "rehabilitate" them, much less training them to be advocates of his agenda, well... No.

That's at least as bad.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

1. Your opinion, OK.

2. The UN has a lot of sanctions against Burma for one, it also is an Illegal "government and trade with the UK is +200 million pounds per year. Our MP's can not do anything. 50 years of watching, yet your saying we should just watch. I am using Burma as an example of the ability of governments to lobby.

3. If you look at the Political Change part of what I do, this is in that field, of helping to elect people of conscience, that we will have nothing to do with once in politics, unlike oil companies etc wanting to have influence, we have none.

95% of the clients for these girls are local people, how would a UK MP make it less profitable? Serious question.

"Because even if you pull this nonsense off, once, you can't stop the trade, at best you are putting a band-aid on a spouting artery."

Very similar to something I say on the blog pages. WO is no band-aid, it's no attempt at changing the tide, that's Political Change and GEB.

"You kidnap her because you are taking her by force. If you set up an agency, whereby they came to you, and you then got them out (a la the Underground Railroad, in the US) that would be different."

No, you do not understand how we get these girls out and you do not know it is not with their consent, as you have not done this before. Do you know, most girls in in one country are unlikely to be of that nationality on child trafficking, they are moved to other countries to make them feel less able to escape, if they do, they do not speak the language. Read, Sex Slaves by Louise Brown, simple read, very informative for a first book on the subject.

I am happy to tell you the country and Minister of health in a private email, but I will not put this in a public forum as she asked this not to be in any press etc, as it breeds attention to this Island. Happy to give it to you privately, so email if you want this detail.

"I'm sorry, I misunderstood aspects of the "pyramid" structure of all of this; in a pyramid everything supports everything else. This, apparently, more like an umbrella."

No, it is pyramid structure of support.

As for CS, and 30 Co, you are asking people to support them, so you can attempt this other stuff. That's why I think it's bad. If CS is such a swell thing, it ought not need all the folderol of Blood Rose and White Orchid, &c.

CT - not CS. It is a separate thing, each division is. The only thing I'm doing differently to a normal company, is telling people what other things I am doing, telling people this is what the money goes towards. Would you prefer I simply made money from a pro profit and not do anything else?

"I am mocking you, because I think what you are doing is ridiculous, and things which are foolhardy and dangerous, which fool people who can't see through the flim-flam into supporting them, deserve ridicule."

You do not insult me but many intelligent people and only make yourself look less, I understand if you say things against what I'm doing, but in this way it seems less than what you are trying to say in a decent way.

Is it pleasant to be ridiculed, no. But I can't help that. You put this hare-brained thing out there. I think it's dangerous. I can sit back and do nothing; which means it has no opposition, or I can say what I think.

"If not me, who? If not now, when?"

TK

What part of hare-brained?

Please list and state which division and why?

I'm trying my best here Terry, that's all I can do.

Ryan

I've told you, more than once, how, and why, it's hare-brained.

Part of why it is is that you don't listen to yourself. You say you understand that I appreciate how difficult it is. In the next sentence you sweep that under the rug.

Intelligence is cheap; the question isn't how smart they are, but how much they understand. Lots of intelligent people bought into Enron. A lot of intelligent people bought into Maggie Thatcher privatising things.

Both of those worked out a peach, didn't they?

I don't care about "looking" ridiculous; I care about the foolhardiness of this, and that you are probably going to convince some number of people to waste time, effort and money.

If I agreed with you, then you'd have some point. Since I don't (and have said so quite a bit) trying to shame me into silence, with the "invisble others" who are thinking less of me? So what. I don't know them, they don't know me.

Which would have been something you might have taken into consideration before you tried to persuade me. Because everyone (all, 700, or so) who reads this, now has more than my interpretation of your ideas; they have your defenses.

I don't think you've been persuasive.

TK

I have asked you to propose alternatives, yet you do not. You say to lobby Mp's, yet do not understand the limits of this.

you insult me at every juncture, yet I simply try to answer your concerns.

Is this the best things for the girls, or for you to be argueing like this. Not debating which could actually achieve somethign more if lookedat in a better way.

I don't shame anyone, it svery obvious what i am doing, it's written ad spoken about in he site. I have also offered for you to have the info on the SEA Island and minister, yet you have not sent me an email. Why?

No one contacted e about you. I'm happy 700 people have seen this post, as from your side, you are taking away those who would not be involved and demeaning those that would.

So either way, you either strenghten my position by weakening yours, or you have people who are sheep to your opinion, based on your estimation of people making thier own decisions.

I'm asking you to think more about this, suggest a better way for me to help these girls.

You critisize Maggies government, and Enron, both huge things.... yet you compare me to both? You also speka of lobbying government after critisizing it.

I do understand your point, but really, suggest some alternatives more than lobbying overnment.

As you are in the Army, you have served in Iraq as I understand by your writings. Some of them I enjoyed to read, do you agree with the actions of the British and american governments being there? If not, why are you? If you do agree, why? I would personaly simply like to know, it is a seperate question to all of my things.

Ryan

Umm, you know I seldom argue that our current regime is long on talk but light on action (apart from the eagerness for initiating wars) however, there have been a number of initiatives lately by the government... mostly in response to the concerns of UK charities (I got leafleted not long ago about the issue -- and there's been a couple of street campaigns). Also there's been much concern about children and women being trafficked into the UK, and although many of the women and children concerned are Eastern European, a percentage are from further afield.

There's also been legislation passed by many countries which allows for the prosecution of their citizens for crimes against children which have been committed in other countries. This isn't an issue that's being ignored. Err, wait a second... I suspect that would mean there's a major possibility of you and your associates being prosecuted should any of these girls (and boys?) prove to be underage.

You also mention repeatedly about how dangerous rescuing these girls will be. That someone might even be killed. When you talk about how Blood Rose will be willing to do whatever is necessary, that sounds a lot like engaging in violence. Does that mean injuring or killing those holding the girls? How do you plan on removing individuals without harm to innocent bystanders? And, if your action is met with the kind of violence which could result in Blood Rose deaths, are you concerned that this might also result in the deaths of the girls you're proposing to rescue? Our host can speak to this far better than I can, but as I understand it there is always a risk in hostage rescues etc that hostages will be killed. Even if that doesn't happen, should the rescue mission fail will the girls be questioned and subjected to punishment for having "liaised" with Blood Rose? It might be cheaper, and safer for everyone concerned, just to buy the girls.

How could you help apart from the fantasy island project? Well... the point of closing down the sex tourism trade was to make it necessary for certain countries to take the problem more seriously (losing the income from sex tourism requiring them to find alternative industries). Continued gentle poking is usually helpful. And the next step might well be to make these children more valuable to their families -- many children in brothels get there because they're sold/rented into slavery -- education and the provision of employment opportunities outside the sex trade can be useful in turning unwanted extra mouths into potential retirement funds. While prostitution is certainly not a lifestyle I want anyone to have to live much of the point is that those involved don't have an alternative that'll actually allow them to live (and in the case of being sold as a slave, allow other family members to stay alive too -- and that's apart from the large number of prostitutes sending money home). Even low level education -- frex reading and writing in their own language -- can open up new possibilities. Plus schemes similar to the various Prince's Trust initiatives -- providing seed money, practical support, and start-up loans etc to small business ventures seem to be working in other areas, where grand designs imposed by outsiders who've no grasp of the local geography and economy (World Bank funded schemes etc) tend to sink under the weight of their apparent good intentions.

Some of your point I realy appreciate.

1. You do not have innocent bystanders inside a brothel.

2. Will Blood Rose engage in violence, remember these people rape young girls, 2.1 why would you even care about this? 2.2 Maybe.

3. You need to know more about what these girls want and liasie, means being inside to find out, poseing as a customer, but not doing anything and simply taking all precaustions for theri safe rescue.

4. Leaflets - YOu are speaking about rasing awareness of the sex trade. What exactly does that do? 95% of the business is local peopple. Leaflets will simply make pedophiles more cautious.

5. Buying the girls is an option, this does not mean we own them before anyone says different, but buying an entire brothel full of girls looks very suspicious to these people, I have never heard of this happening. It does not mean it can not, but I think it would be very problematic. mayeb buying the youngest girls, 5 years +

6. Micro finanec is good, i agree.

7. Political Change and GEB are my solutions to the larger issues of sex trafficing.

Sex Tourism is only 5% of the problem. You only know about the examples of people from the west. Do you ever hear about the americans or fecnch sex tourists. No, as its not deemed news worthy.

I do appreciate these questions.

I hope I have answered them the best I can.

Ryan

1. You do not have innocent bystanders inside a brothel.

You don't? How about the other whores? And since you're not concerning yourself with the boys... what about the boy whores? You're only going to rescue girls from single-sex rural brothels with no adult prostitutes? Brothels with no neighbouring houses, nobody walking down the street, no one delivering supplies, no one paid to do the laundry, no newly engaged bloke who was brought by a couple of friends as a joke, no kids hanging around hoping to earn money from running errands or... Brothels generally don't exist in isolation.

2. Will Blood Rose engage in violence, remember these people rape young girls, 2.1 why would you even care about this? 2.2 Maybe.

And raping young girls is wrong and nasty and bad. But so is GBH and murder. Why do I care about people being murdered? Well, I suspect that people with a very black and white sense of right and wrong, and whose first resort is to violence, are not the best caretakers of vulnerable and disturbed children.

3. You need to know more about what these girls want and liasie, means being inside to find out, poseing as a customer, but not doing anything and simply taking all precaustions for theri safe rescue.

And of course customers regularly pay for girls and don't use them, so you won't stand out at all. What if the girl in question doesn't want to be rescued? What if she finds what she's doing to be unpleasant but prefers to remain in her own country rather than going off with strange men who kill people? Why should she trust your agent? Why wouldn't she tell the brothel owner what you discuss? If she hasn't been indentured into prostitution as payment on a loan to her family but was abducted into slavery... why would she believe she'd end up anywhere but another, possibly more unpleasant, brothel?

4. Leaflets - YOu are speaking about rasing awareness of the sex trade. What exactly does that do? 95% of the business is local peopple. Leaflets will simply make pedophiles more cautious.

Maybe I should make that clearer, the fact that in my backwater town I get sent a leaflet to raise my awareness of the issues means that they're not exactly being ignored. Awareness leads to legislation, leads to people reporting suspicious activity, leads to prosecutions. Or... awareness leads to understanding of the complex problems, possibly to the kind of commitment of resources necessary to achieve cultural changes. Or perhaps it shames those in power into imposing and/or enforcing legislation and international treaties etc...

What exactly does abducting a hundred child prostitutes do? There's no shortage of children to take their places. And your plans for the future of these girls appear as simplistic as those for the rescue. Yes, you can take them to an island paradise (although I suspect this is a Western male concept of paradise and is going to involve the older girls doing a lot of household chores) but they're going to continue to be seriously damaged human beings... and you don't sound as if you're prepared for them to not want to do what you tell them, or to be 'bad' in other ways. And on an island where the only males will be in positions of authority over them, how on earth are they going to frex learn to cope with and express their developing sexuality? They're never going to be in a position of equality or superiority to a man. They're not going to have any male peers to experiment with, or to learn relationship building with. You're removing them from any contact with normal society... heck they're not even going to learn how to shop... What future life does that prepare them for?

5. Buying the girls is an option, this does not mean we own them before anyone says different, but buying an entire brothel full of girls looks very suspicious to these people, I have never heard of this happening. It does not mean it can not, but I think it would be very problematic. mayeb buying the youngest girls, 5 years +

I thought you said these girls were going to be able to choose whether to come with you, but now you're talking about liberating an entire brothel. Again the assumption that child prostitutes will not be confused by and wary of offers to take them away from all this.

BTW How many very young children do you expect to be taking? Because your staffing levels might be minimally acceptable for looking after co-operative teenagers but they're pretty inadequate for providing the near constant supervision required for a significant number of disturbed primary school aged children, and educating disturbed children of that age requires a great deal more than a Phd. And you don't appear to be considering the emotional needs of younger children... including the need for staff with well developed parenting skills.

[Oh, while I'm on the page... where's your vet? And why a Japanese stone garden... isn't imposing a Japanese cultural icon a little too ironic? Considering how many women from across SE Asia were raped to death in Japanese military brothels during WW2.]

7. Political Change and GEB are my solutions to the larger issues of sex trafficing.

So, what's Blood Rose the solution to?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

We get letters (updated)

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