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We get letters (updated)
Ryan, the founder of Concientious Traveller, discovered the first piece I wrote.
He takes exceptions, and saw fit to send them to me. (you really ought to go and see the responses he's sent me)
He's offended that I said this was a scam, and asks what my problem is with his enterprise.
Ok, here are my specific problems: it's an insane idea which can never work; a mad enterprise which will, if actually undertaken, be lucky to end no more badly than a bunch of people in prison in someplace unpleasant.
That's the short version.
The long version.
What he is proposing is illegal. It's kidnapping people. To make it worse it's then taking them to some other place and making them prisoners of a different sort. They won't be refugees. They won't legally be allowed to go anyplace (except, pehaps, the place from whence they were stolen away). They will be at the mercy of those who stole them. It may be with the best of intentions, but that's what he proposes.
He claims to want to turn these girls into some sort of political players, people who will go home and reform the places from whence they came.
Not. Gonna. Happen.
When asked about getting passports for them (so they may attend university) the it goes like this:
Q: "But just because they are accepted to a university in Europe or the US doesn't mean that they'll be allowed to take up permanent residence. (How do you even propose to establish these children's identities, get birth certificates, passports etc., that will allow them to travel?)"
A: I never said they would. Now your asking very detailed information and it's not going to be answered, one as I don't deal with this part and secondly as this is not for public forums.
Not inspiring.
If he manages to kidnap some girls, they will be, at best (if all the madcap schemes work), like Ahmad Chalabi, seen as puppets for someone else's interest. At worst, they will go home, preach his brand of world reformation, and be locked up/killed, for being a threat to the gov't/society.
I'd love to see places like Burma become better places. Does anyone think I know enough about the situation to collect a bunch of "sex slaves" from Burma, take them to an island, where I've brought some others from Thailand, Laos, the Dominican Republic, etc, train them all; in, I assume, the same philosophical underpinnings of how the word ought to be (that's why I chose Plato's "Philosopher King" analogy, and they will be able to go home, to a society they were never fully a part of, and take over? All the while running a nature preserve and breeding up endangered animals to repopulate in the wild (I really like that touch, it gets the warm-fuzzie sorts of the "save the planet" sorts to buy into this).
No.
His responses elsewhere (this has become so my father tells me, a huge discussion at CouchSurfing because he's trying to recruit people to help him market Concientious Traveller, by selling them on the "altruistic" works of the subsidaries which will change the world by kidnapping children in the sex trade and brainwashing them into political missionaries for his utopic vision of a future world) don't make me feel any better about this.
Which was the other stuff, packed in there, which disturbing me.
What about the white girls in the same boat. There are women in, Japan Israel, Korea, and, I am sure, a few more places, who were lured with offers of jobs, and then forced into being prostitutes. I don't see mention of this.
I think it's because they are adults. Because they aren't likely to be pliable enough to be brainwashed into thinking they are going to be the salvation of the world.
I don't think it's concious version of the "White Man's Burden" and going out to help the poor, backwards Orientals join the civilised world, but that does seem to be part of the driving mindset.
I don't like the sex trade. I think the commodification of people is horrid. Going off on a vigilante raid to kidnap them, and then, "rehabilitate" them, much less training them to be advocates of his agenda, well... No.
That's at least as bad.
He takes exceptions, and saw fit to send them to me. (you really ought to go and see the responses he's sent me)
He's offended that I said this was a scam, and asks what my problem is with his enterprise.
Ok, here are my specific problems: it's an insane idea which can never work; a mad enterprise which will, if actually undertaken, be lucky to end no more badly than a bunch of people in prison in someplace unpleasant.
That's the short version.
The long version.
What he is proposing is illegal. It's kidnapping people. To make it worse it's then taking them to some other place and making them prisoners of a different sort. They won't be refugees. They won't legally be allowed to go anyplace (except, pehaps, the place from whence they were stolen away). They will be at the mercy of those who stole them. It may be with the best of intentions, but that's what he proposes.
He claims to want to turn these girls into some sort of political players, people who will go home and reform the places from whence they came.
Not. Gonna. Happen.
When asked about getting passports for them (so they may attend university) the it goes like this:
Q: "But just because they are accepted to a university in Europe or the US doesn't mean that they'll be allowed to take up permanent residence. (How do you even propose to establish these children's identities, get birth certificates, passports etc., that will allow them to travel?)"
A: I never said they would. Now your asking very detailed information and it's not going to be answered, one as I don't deal with this part and secondly as this is not for public forums.
Not inspiring.
If he manages to kidnap some girls, they will be, at best (if all the madcap schemes work), like Ahmad Chalabi, seen as puppets for someone else's interest. At worst, they will go home, preach his brand of world reformation, and be locked up/killed, for being a threat to the gov't/society.
I'd love to see places like Burma become better places. Does anyone think I know enough about the situation to collect a bunch of "sex slaves" from Burma, take them to an island, where I've brought some others from Thailand, Laos, the Dominican Republic, etc, train them all; in, I assume, the same philosophical underpinnings of how the word ought to be (that's why I chose Plato's "Philosopher King" analogy, and they will be able to go home, to a society they were never fully a part of, and take over? All the while running a nature preserve and breeding up endangered animals to repopulate in the wild (I really like that touch, it gets the warm-fuzzie sorts of the "save the planet" sorts to buy into this).
No.
His responses elsewhere (this has become so my father tells me, a huge discussion at CouchSurfing because he's trying to recruit people to help him market Concientious Traveller, by selling them on the "altruistic" works of the subsidaries which will change the world by kidnapping children in the sex trade and brainwashing them into political missionaries for his utopic vision of a future world) don't make me feel any better about this.
Which was the other stuff, packed in there, which disturbing me.
What about the white girls in the same boat. There are women in, Japan Israel, Korea, and, I am sure, a few more places, who were lured with offers of jobs, and then forced into being prostitutes. I don't see mention of this.
I think it's because they are adults. Because they aren't likely to be pliable enough to be brainwashed into thinking they are going to be the salvation of the world.
I don't think it's concious version of the "White Man's Burden" and going out to help the poor, backwards Orientals join the civilised world, but that does seem to be part of the driving mindset.
I don't like the sex trade. I think the commodification of people is horrid. Going off on a vigilante raid to kidnap them, and then, "rehabilitate" them, much less training them to be advocates of his agenda, well... No.
That's at least as bad.
no subject
The Team
(Anonymous) 2007-07-06 07:55 am (UTC)(link)Ryan
Re: The Team
You say it goes on and on, but there's nothing to check, no way to verify.
It's you, pretty much alone, telling the world what wonderful things are going on, offstage.
There are lots of people who've gotten laws passed, lots of Ph.Ds in the world, lots of people who've worked with UNESCO, lots of psychologists; in private practice.
None of those things, by themselves, is worth a thing. Beucase they don't speak to those people's suitability to the "plan" you've put together.
Who have you got that's ever staged a snatch and grab? Who have you got who has ever run a boarding school (much less started one)? Have you anyone who knows how to speak to the girls you plan to steal away? How do you plan to supply the island? If you are going to grow your own food, who will do that?
How will you provide for water? What about serious medical care; in event of emergency (you need either a plane, chopper, or clinic; capable of minor surgery, and the staff to make it useful).
Who will design the curriculum? What of paying the people who are providing all these services? How about replacing people who decide it's not for them?
You've got a dream. When you are asked you say the answers are out there. Well I've looked, and I don't see answers. I see hints, promises and hand waving. Doctors are "being sourced" islands are being procured, people are being talked to and a "teacher who has written a law and had it passed in the USA" is on board."
Whoopee. One teacher. Is this person going to move to your island paradise? Or just provide moral support and guidance?
This thing you are proposing is huge. Even if it were a good idea, the costs in getting started are huge (and that leaves out the idiocy of the breeding compound/nature preserve). Maintaining it won't be cheap either.
Reearch on how to design a self-sustaining ecology in a system so small as an island (much less without destroying the system which already exists) alone is an expense I don't think you can manage.
You've made the proposal. That means you get to defend it. Saying "hey, if you don't like my idea, come up with something better; and if you don't then leave me alone," is twaddle.
Not having something better doesn't mean your idea isn't shite.
TK
Re: The Team
(Anonymous) 2007-07-06 04:56 pm (UTC)(link)2. "Because they don't speak to those people's suitability to the "plan" you've put together."
As your the Authority here, and those involved are specific for some tasks, seriously what is your point. You are nothing but aggressive, not surprising considering your profession. Oh, is that a stereo type. Is it also a stereo type to say those in armed forces are more likely to be those with these girls...; I wonder what your motivations relay are here. Simple question. I'm not suggesting anything, just wondering.
3. Snatch and Grab - As your in the services, and I state no one in blood rose will ever be mentioned. First, you know I could never say who is in this team, secondly it makes me question what you actually do, as you really should know I could not answer this question being in the forces yourself.
4. Translator are available at my disposal. Also, they will not be necessary after a period of time and the teachers are starting to learn different Asiatic languages.
5. Supplying the Island, Food I have already answered this question to you, as you know. Either on the Island, or renting near by farms and contracting local farmers. We will also assist them with food production and if floods, this is covered also, to outsource supplies and keep months worth of emergency rations available, just in case.
6. Supplying the Island with labour for the school and these things, not actually being handled by myself but someone in the team. But all is being or has been sourced.
7. Curriculum being designed by a few of he teachers but using a well known boarding school with great grades as a Frame work, and also someone who Advises the French and Spanish Educational System on this.
8. Paying people. Teachers and the team etc. Please look at the site, I will answer new questions, not old. Everyone gets paid from CT.
9. Water, different methods, but there are 3 main sources for this and the Island has it's own fresh water supply, natural spring.
Part 2
(Anonymous) 2007-07-06 04:59 pm (UTC)(link)11. How do you do something like I am in the first place, if it was in it's infancy, which it is not, you would rather just say.. ah it's one man, on a crusade, ten people aboard it a few deluded people. 50, a cult is being formed... 100, this guy is just crazy and someone should stop him, 1000 people and then you will still be hell bent on telling people you exist.
Both Caroline and Cindy will live on the Island, not just for one year, but many. Cindy will leave more frequently to return to the US, Caroline will be there for long long periods like other teachers, our nurse wants to stay for at least 3 years, then to think about what she wants. But I'm sure you will find a problem with this?
Breeding, i forgot you know so much about this..... if you have 2 animals, one is male, one female... on a protected part of the Island.. of course this will cost astronomical fee's.... why????????????
Yes it is big. Costs are not as high as you think.
Sorry Terry, your just wrong here. You know so little about me. You want people to hear your choice, you ask questions, I answer, your like a child who wants to keep his toy.
Your right you don't think. You have no idea what my financial backing is on this, none, yet you still want to be heard.
That's 2 times in the last sentence I have acted like you.
Can you see how pointless it is to say.
Your language, and use of insults is very limited.
Why do it. I don't I'm making a point.
People like you are why the world is as it is.
It's so easy to sit back, feel worth in your life when you do????? I'm asking.
I answer things in a good way, in the spirit of making things better and all you do is revert to the gutter on many of your posts.
It's easy to discuss things with me, it's easy to ask me questions, but as soon as the person you say bad things about says something, you just act like a child. I remember when I was 12, in school, and some kids were arguing... they could not think of the words to use, so they insulted using gutter language.
All I have tried to do here, is what is best for those kids, yet all you do is keep this world the same. You are a wonderful human being Terry.
I'm sure you will take all this personally, I'm glad, as I have only been civil, all you do is continue to be a child.
Ryan
I have tried in the best spirit here.