WTF?

[pecunium]

Recently, at work, something odd happened.

Guy came in, and started to ask me questions about knives. So far all is normal. Selling knives is a lot of what I do. We talk about this and that, and he starts being discoursive. He then asks me one of those questions I've had, now and again, though not here; at SLT.

"What do you think of women using knives?"


"I don't have any problem with it."

He went on, saying from things he'd seen them doing in the kitchen it gave him the willies. I said he ought to see the things I see men doing with knives. Then I tried to point out that it was more a matter of preconceptions than anything else. I told him I'd been in the army for 167 years, and I taught firearms handling, as well as knife skills. This was to lead into telling him that I far prefer to have female students (in firearms) than I do male ones (in knives it doesn't have the same gender skew, though there are traits I think I see more in women than in men. There are other traits I think I see in men more. some good, some bad, in both sexes).

That did, so I thoght, derail the conversation, but it was being a bit strange, and I wanted to done with it. He started asking me questions about guns, and I started actually moving him out of the store. On the way he started asking me about my thoughts on "open carry". My thoughts on the carryng of firearms are pretty simple. Most people shouldn't do it because they don't think it through carefully enough (for more detailed ideas of my thinking you can read the post/comments in places like Making Light (where the subject has come up, more than once).

I tried to say this, gently, but I was starting to get an odd vibe. I actually started pushing him out of the store (my boss actually noticed this). At the door he kept going, and then it happened, he explained why he was looking into things like "open carry" (which right he didn't know we had in Calif. never mind that as configured it's a mess... asking for trouble and conferring no real benefit to anyone who isn't willing to spend lots of time getting a number of drills down to pure muscle memory. Even if that's done the requirements still make you much more target than anything else... all of which I mentioned to him).

It's because of the political situation now, and the "trouble we have coming with the blacks and the browns".

I was croggled. He'd just given me what can only be described as the tea-bagger's secret handshake. I wasn't certain until he added, "You know I used to be a liberal."

The next say, he was back. Asked if I had a card, and then (when I said I didn't really. Which was true, in context. I don't have a card for my work, and I had no intent of sharing my personal one with him). That, it seemed was ok. He had one to give me, with a slightly conspiratorial leaning in as he said, "I might have some work for you."

Comments

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

I know Arizona has open carry. I find it both amusing, and not.

The reasons are the same.

There is a fundamental difference between California's right to open carry and Arizona's.

In California the weapon must be empty. No cartridges in it at all.

Which is why I said legally engaging open carry here is really problematic. If I were to be engaging in some sort of thing which an armed person would be a detriment, I 1: know they are armed. 2: that, if they are carrying legally they either have a carry permit, and so some training, or they don't and they need to load before they can fire.

Which means it's (esp. now) a political statement, and the politics in question, annoy me.

[jaylake.livejournal.com]

My view on open carry is that if I see someone in a public place with a firearm, I call 911. Period. They can work it out with law enforcement. I am not interested in risking my life for someone else's attitude.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

This opens you up to two problems: 1) The "Boy who cried wolf" effect, where the cops might be slower to respond to a genuine emergency if you have a history of what they believe to be frivolous calls, and 2) charges of Filing a False Police Report, or whatever your local jurisdiction calls it. The moral of this story is, if you live in a state with open carry, don't call the cops unless you have a valid reason to be suspicious besides "OMG I'm so scared of teh mean guns!!1!"

[jaylake.livejournal.com]

I'll let the cops explain that to me. I have no way to know a gun is licensed or legal, but it's utterly clear to me that it's a danger to myself and everyone else.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Well, if you want to operate in bad faith in order to harass your fellow citizens for exercising rights that you don't agree with, I can't stop you. Any more than I could stop someone determined to call the cops every time they see someone in Middle Eastern garb, under the assumption the _must_ be terrorists.

[jaylake.livejournal.com]

Lot more deaths by gun violence in this country every year than by terrorism. Many thousands more. Just sayin'. Guess which worries me more? :)

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

I really don't think harassing law-abiding citizens will lower gun violence rates. Criminals tend not to brandish unless they're actively perpetrating at that moment. Meanwhile, you plan to waste police resources with frivolous calls, which increases the chance they won't be able to respond to genuine crimes. How is this supposed to help, again?

Minor edit: Replace "Law abiding citizens" with "Citizens you have no valid reason to believe _aren't_ law abiding". Just for precision's sake.

[jaylake.livejournal.com]

Again, how do I know it's a legal firearm? That's a police matter, I'm certainly not going to ask anyone who feels a need to display a firearm if they have a carry permit. Any gun off the street is a safer street. Period.

(Then again, I'm one of those weirdos who thinks the Second Amendment applies to the National Guard, so I'm pretty sure we have an irreconcilable difference of viewpoint here.)

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

The standards of basic civic responsibility are that you don't call the cops unless you have reason to believe a crime is being committed, NOT that you call them whenever you don't know for positively, absolutely certain that one hasn't.

But yeah, we probably won't resolve this, so let's not continue the argument in an innocent third party's blog.

[jaylake.livejournal.com]

You have a good evening, then. And thank you for a civil discourse on a difficult topic.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Because in Calif., unless it's a felon; there is no legal requirement to have a permit to carry; so long as it isn't loaded. I admit, for a revolver that might require a small amount of specialised knowledge, but an unloaded automatic is pretty easy to spot, even for those who don't shoot.

Now that I've chimed in, thanks to the both of you for not letting things get out of hand.

[jaylake.livejournal.com]

Sorry for hijacking the thread. I'm just as happy we both behaved whilst in your parlor.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

As highjackings go, it was in keeping with the topic, and not foaming at the mouth/hashing the same points ad infinitum (even the point you two were working over was being explored, not repeated at more volume).

I mentioned guns, their use and carry. If I got a bit of the usual (people with very different opinions on them) I ought not be surprised, and have no right to be upset (with the usual caveats about goodbehavior).

[jaylake.livejournal.com]

WRT to your edit, I generally don't see any valid reason for carrying a firearm in public in our contemporary society outside of law enforcement or specific security needs, so the presence of a visible firearm does not tend to reinforce my assumption of law-abiding citizenly behavior.

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

Minor edit: Replace "Law abiding citizens" with "Citizens you have no valid reason to believe _aren't_ law abiding". Just for precision's sake.

[jaylake.livejournal.com]

FWIW, not that I should need to explain this, but I'm an excellent shot, well-trained in firearms safety and lettered in both riflery and archery back in the day. My intense distrust of guns is not founded on ignorance. Quite the opposite.

[calimac.livejournal.com]

What mystifies me is this: Since everyone in California knows that a civilian's legally open carried firearm must be unloaded, why would anyone want to carry one?

The usual cant about carrying firearms is that you never know when you're going to need to shoot a predator or something, but if your weapon is empty, you can't shoot it. So what's the point of displaying it? Or is it pure macho, nothing else?

[chaotic-nipple.livejournal.com]

That _is_ a drawback, yes. The I guess thinking is "Better a gun that takes a few seconds more to load, than no gun at all".

[inflectionpoint.livejournal.com]

breaks my brain tho -

if you know I'm carrying, and you're a problem person, the fact that you know I'm carrying puts me at a... not advantage. I may not get those frew seconds, and that can be bad.

If you don't know, and if I'm ready, that's different.

I can't -imagine- wanting to carry unloaded and for all to see. What on earth is the point?

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

And my thinking is... that's worse than no gun at all. It's in the open. Getting it out draws attention. The person who was the cause of your desire to shoot (why else draw), is really likely to 1: see you, and 2: have a firearm out.

At which point the odds of you being shot go from random, to almost certain.

The other thing (and where I understand, but for different reasons, disagree with jaylake), is that the people doing this are doing it for political statement. I'd really like the populace to make that sort of carry less pleasant (mosty by denying them service in establishments).

Calling the cops on them just confirms, to them, the need to carry. That will, of course, be used to recruit/propagandise.

What I might like to see, if they are not being dissuaded by merchants, I'd like to see a lot of persons of color carrying in the areas they tend to travel.